On Fri 07 Sep 2001, elias.ross_at_openwave.com wrote: > Matt Broze wrote: > > > It doesn't seem like in the interest of > the people of the San Juan Islands (who are often reclusive rich folk) > to offer campsites to kayakers, who offer them no economic benefit. Isn't there a law about public boating access to beachs? Doesn't extend to overnight does it? -- Mike McNally mmcnally3_at_prodigy.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9/9/01 11:06 AM, "Mike McNally" <mmcnally3_at_PRODIGY.NET> wrote: > Isn't there a law about public boating access to beachs? Doesn't extend > to overnight does it? Varies state to state and Canada is yet different. In Washington State, the Reagan-like thinking at the turn of the last century led to a decision to sell the beaches to private parties as a way of raising money and lowering taxes. When Washington became a state the beaches were in public hands. Of course it was a one time deal, like cutting old growth timber, but it raised money. And it screwed over the public forever in the future because they gave up their rights to the beaches for a few dollars. (Sort of feel like an American Indian). A few beaches were not bought and remain in the public's domain. Belatedly, the decision was made not to sell anymore. Surrounding land owners tend to make it difficult to find and access these few spots. (Tear down signs etc) Now that they are (for the most part) sold and in private hands you (the public) do not have much in the way of rights. When the tide is in, you are allowed to kayak OVER the submerged beach. When the tide is out you cannot walk on the land without trespassing. Does not matter if you are spending the night or spending just a few minutes. Some have tried to create an argument that the beaches are walkways historically and there should be a right to continue to walk on the old "trail". That would cover just moving along the beach. I do not believe this has ever been adjudicated. Many private parties own only to mean low water. So on an extreme low tide you might have rights to a few minutes on the land. The San Juans are a beautiful set of islands but increasingly the owners are making it difficult for kayakers to use. Ever since I was a kid in the 50's many landowners actively chased away boaters. It has gotten worse and there have been various tactics used to make it difficult for kayakers to launch in the islands. I am sure that landowners can tell you bad stories about the public using their land. A certain percentage of the public always behaves in an uncivilized way. And the more people there are, the greater the tensions. In British Columbia the beaches remained in the public domain. This is one reason that waterfront is a lot cheaper in Canada. You cannot keep the public off. Also the beach ends at EXTREME high tide which means that most of the time there is at least a strip of public land. As I would understand it, there is nothing that would keep you from setting up a tent in this little strip but I could be wrong. Just because land Is public does not mean necessarily that you can camp there. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Robert Livingston & Pam Martin <bearboat2_at_home.com> wrote: > On 9/9/01 11:06 AM, "Mike McNally" <mmcnally3_at_PRODIGY.NET> wrote: > > > Isn't there a law about public boating access to beachs? Doesn't > extend > > to overnight does it? > > Varies state to state and Canada is yet different. > > In Washington State, the Reagan-like thinking at the turn of the last > century led to a decision to sell the beaches to private parties as a > way of > raising money and lowering taxes. When Washington became a state the > beaches > were in public hands. Of course it was a one time deal, like cutting > old > growth timber, but it raised money. And it screwed over the public > forever > in the future because they gave up their rights to the beaches for a > few > dollars. (Sort of feel like an American Indian). A few beaches were > not > bought and remain in the public's domain. Belatedly, the decision was > made > not to sell anymore. Surrounding land owners tend to make it > difficult to > find and access these few spots. (Tear down signs etc) The information is pretty readily available, however. The state publishes a book, _Washington Public Shore Guide_, I think is the title, which is pretty useful. Published in 1986, but hopefully nothing has changed since then regarding state ownership. I also picked up a map several years ago which was a combination topo and road map of the San Juans with the public beaches labled and their extent marked (the state book is not so good about showing the endpoints of the public beach). Don't have it on me to check the name of the publisher, but I could check at home. The main problem is that few of these have upland access for use as a put-in, or camping space. I make a note of the beaches that might be useful on my chart, so if I need to land I can hopefully choose a legal site. The few times I've done this, no one has ever confronted me, but if they did, my plan is to pull out my phone and say "this is state beach #221A, so if you have any problem, I'll be happy to call the cops." ===== Mike Wagenbach Seattle "Watch out, those monkeys bite!" Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9/10/01 5:43 PM, "Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe" <aldercreek_at_qwest.net> wrote: > There is another great book out there called San Juan Islands, Your Public > Beaches, published by the State of Washington, DNR. It was originally > published in 1985 and is currently out of print. When the DNR originally came out with the plan to list the beaches, the San Juans were done last because as I understand it there was political pressure to delay or even not do it at all. But people and government were more "radical" at that time and the project went forward. Unfortunately this is out of print but I am not surprised. This should be published on the the Internet where it could be updated at low cost. In any case, the situation should not have "changed" because the basic decision not to sell any more public beach has I believe been maintained. Originally, DNR tried to mark these beaches with special buoys. They did not last long. Nature and locals took care of them. Water access to Lake Washington is similarly restricted by people landscaping road ends etc into obscurity. I live by a waterfront wildlife refuge in Federal Way. The signs indicating the public access point do not last long. There are, of course, two sides to the story. The drunk and obnoxious littering minority of the public obviously show up to keep tensions high and to keep people's liberal inclinations under control. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike McNally <mmcnally3_at_PRODIGY.NET> wrote: >>>>>>>>>On Fri 07 Sep 2001, elias.ross_at_openwave.com wrote: > Matt Broze wrote: > > > It doesn't seem like in the interest of > the people of the San Juan Islands (who are often reclusive rich folk) > to offer campsites to kayakers, who offer them no economic benefit. <<<<<<<<< I did not write this, but the above quote makes it seem like I did. Mike Wagenbach wrote: <SNIP>>>>>>>The information is pretty readily available, however. The state publishes a book, _Washington Public Shore Guide_, I think is the title, which is pretty useful. Published in 1986, but hopefully nothing has changed since then regarding state ownership. I also picked up a map several years ago which was a combination topo and road map of the San Juans with the public beaches labled and their extent marked (the state book is not so good about showing the endpoints of the public beach). Don't have it on me to check the name of the publisher, but I could check at home.<<<<<<SNIP> The DNR (Dept. of Natural Resources) published "Your Public Beaches" for both the San Juan Islands and the Straits of Juan de Fuca and (I believe) also published that map of the San Juans you have. I used to take them with me on paddles so I could know where I could land. Also, if I was confronted I figured I could apologize for mistaking their land for a public beach, pull them out and ask the landowner to point out where I was on the map. I figured that would be a non-confrontational way to get them to look at that map. I never needed to do this, as well, but I suspect that the publication of these booklets back in 1986 was a major factor that mobilized the landowners to find ways of limiting the kayakers that could access their newly discovered public beaches (that the landowners had previously treated as their private property) by closing the kayak access points near the ferry terminals at Lopez, Shaw and Orcas Islands. Many of the beaches in the San Juan's are public up to the mean high tide line. Essentially that means those beaches could be accessed at any time the tide was not up into the log line. Camping would not be legal even on the sand though if the area was not designated as a camping area. I think one of the main problem landowners would probably have with kayakers was the reason many of them chose to land. Most seeking to relieve themselves probably wouldn't do so on the low and level sands (in full visibility) but would rather trespass to a more private place. I suspect that Dave's plywood kayak was resonating more like a guitar than a flute. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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