Steve Scherrer "Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe" <aldercreek_at_qwest.net> wrote: >Where's Mr. Broze? > >According to Matt, Mariner kayaks turn by being edged alone. No >initiation required. Something about the asymmetric shape of the hull. > Tilt right and the hull turns left and visa versa. They do, they really do! It's the craziest (but one of the neatest) things I've ever felt. I borrowed a buddy's Mariner Max this summer, and simply paddled in a dead-straight line. Lift the right knee, turn to the left. Drop the knee, and heading straight again (on a new course). Lift the left knee, and turn back onto the original heading. All without a single paddle stroke. It was also surprisingly maneuverable, leanable, and edge-able for a 23" wide boat. I could also handroll it, which surprised me. > Most boats I have paddled are more or less neutral when edged and need >some sort of persuasion or initiation to turn. Yes, and like you said, more edging can pronounce the turn, but the edging doesn't actually produce the turn. I've heard some hard-chined Greenland-style hulls carve paddle-less turns, but I haven't run across one yet. I imagine the Broze brothers' asymmetric hull with no chines forward and hard chines aft is a huge contributor to this effect. I think all of the Mariner models have a very pronounced Swedeform hull shape. Also the "rudderless design" with the huge fixed skeg in the stern. Perhaps the width and flare of the hull contribute to getting this thing fully out of the water in a leaned turn, allowing the hard chines to carve without being stopped by the skeg. And I'm just wondering out loud...I don't expect Matt to give up his hydrodynamics secrets if he doesn't want to. >I would think that a neutral hull would be better, so when doing a peel >out into current, a downstream tilt would allow the hull to freely turn >downstream, instead of trying to turn the hull up against the current. That's a very interesting angle. I wonder what a Mariner does in that situation. I think the faster-moving water toward the middle of the flow would still strike the bow first and bring it around whether the stern was trying to carve or not. Shawn Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> > >According to Matt, Mariner kayaks turn by being edged alone. No > >initiation required. Something about the asymmetric shape of the hull. > > > Tilt right and the hull turns left and visa versa. > > They do, they really do! It's the craziest (but one of the neatest) > things I've ever felt. No discredit to the great folks at Mariner, but I'm a tad amazed that this seems to be a unique feature. Many kayaks do this, including my Solstice GTH, the Swift North Sea (JW design), Pintail and many more. In fact, this is one of the factors I consider in evaluating a kayak. For no particularly great reason, I expect a kayak to do this. (Note that my Ellesmere is not particularly great at this. It will turn with just a lean, but weakly and a bit of weather will make it go the other way. So there are other things I value as well. It's just that I always test this feature when trying a kayak.) The most symmetric hull I tried (that I can think of offhand) is the Caribou S. It is neither fish-form nor swede form and it had the least distinct turning behavior I've noted (skeg up, of course). Edge it without a sweep and it could go either way. With a sweep, it was fine. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think the phenomenon is general and not particular for any specific type of hull shape. A specific shape may make it sharper or not. Talking of something many people have seen in order to have common views, if you look at the Perfomance Sea Kayaking excellent tape, youŽll see Randy Carlson in a plastic almost flat bottom kayak, no chine, no center line, not too big a rocker and not to big a stern turning when he leans heavily on one side and then on the other. The same is seen with other kayaks. I think the basic requirements for a boat to turn when leaned is that it is wider in the center. The ACA course teaches to lean to the outer side of the curve at the same time as making a sweep stroke in order to get a more effective turn. We have proven that if the center is wider and the stern extends farther back and goes in deeper, i.e. less rocker, the carving effect when leaning is more noticeable. That is why we have made our boat narrow in the water level but wide on the seam and with well marked bow to stern line, and inclined side walls. We have enhanced the property that we think is basic for the carving and the result is great. Most of the time 8 out of 10 it turns when one leans, and sometimes you can make it turn in the opposite direction when changing the leaning, without touching the water with the paddle. We can tape it for anybody interested. Best Regards, Rafael www.mayanseas.com At 03:02 p.m. 04/12/01 -0500, you wrote: >From: "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> > > > >According to Matt, Mariner kayaks turn by being edged alone. No > > >initiation required. Something about the asymmetric shape of the hull. > > > > > Tilt right and the hull turns left and visa versa. > > > > They do, they really do! It's the craziest (but one of the neatest) > > things I've ever felt. > >No discredit to the great folks at Mariner, but I'm a tad amazed that this >seems to be a unique feature. Many kayaks do this, including my >Solstice GTH, the Swift North Sea (JW design), Pintail and many more. >In fact, this is one of the factors I consider in evaluating a kayak. For >no particularly great reason, I expect a kayak to do this. (Note that my >Ellesmere is not particularly great at this. It will turn with just a >lean, but >weakly and a bit of weather will make it go the other way. So there are >other things I value as well. It's just that I always test this feature when >trying a kayak.) > >The most symmetric hull I tried (that I can think of offhand) is the >Caribou S. >It is neither fish-form nor swede form and it had the least distinct turning >behavior I've noted (skeg up, of course). Edge it without a sweep and it >could go either way. With a sweep, it was fine. > >Mike > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> Just a comment on my own note: > From: "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> > > > >According to Matt, Mariner kayaks turn by being edged alone. No > > >initiation required. Something about the asymmetric shape of the hull. > > > > > Tilt right and the hull turns left and visa versa. > > > > They do, they really do! It's the craziest (but one of the neatest) > > things I've ever felt. > > No discredit to the great folks at Mariner, but I'm a tad amazed that this > seems to be a unique feature. Many kayaks do this, [...] I hope no one takes my comments on specific kayaks in this post as gospel. While I try to test the no-sweep-carved-turn under similar conditions (e.g. negligible wind and waves) there are many things that I don't control or properly account for. For example, I don't guarantee that I test at the same forward speed - this no doubt influences behavior. As well, kayaks that have a well-defined sweet spot in the secondary stability or at least feel comfy on edge will be tested with more heel than those that are twitchy - especially in the spring when I don't want to dump (brrrr!) and when my skills are a tad rusty. So the Pintail, which I love and which feels natural on me (and I wish I owned!), is likely to exhibit the behavior more easily _for_me_ than the Caribou, since I never felt "right" in the latter (nonetheless, IMHO it is a fairly "neutral" kayak for the things I tried out). Ditto my Solstice, which, after five years, I'm quite comfortable with and can heel over hard quite readily. Someone else in a Solstive GTH, a very stable and hard-to-lean kayak, might have trouble getting it to turn easily on edge without a sweep. This is definitely a case of YMMV. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn Baker wrote: > > >According to Matt [Broze], Mariner kayaks turn by being edged alone. No > >initiation required. Something about the asymmetric shape of the hull. > > > Tilt right and the hull turns left and visa versa. > > They do, they really do! It's the craziest (but one of the neatest) > things I've ever felt. I borrowed a buddy's Mariner Max this summer, > and simply paddled in a dead-straight line. Lift the right knee, turn > to the left. Drop the knee, and heading straight again (on a new > course). Lift the left knee, and turn back onto the original heading. > All without a single paddle stroke. That is a neat effect, but it's not limited to Mariners. I paddle my Dagger Meridien through twisting marsh creeks by paddling straight ahead and lifting my knees to turn. Works a treat. I find it helps to look ahead through the turn, but that may be superstitious ;) It's not limited to kayaks, either. Open canoes do the same trick. What do you mean about the asymmetric shape of the hull? Almost every kayak I've ever seen is asymmetric front-to-back and top-to-bottom. Are Mariners asymmetric side-to-side? -- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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