Scott said: <snip> I often get the feeling that certain people on this list are rather elitist in their thinking and as such are unwilling to even consider some of the, shall we for lack of a better description call them, lower levels of the sport. <snip> ------------ I'm not so sure its an elitist mentality that cognates through the windmills of some of our minds, but rather a genuine concern for the growing plethora of plastic recreational kayaks currently experiencing exponential growth across North America. Having said that, it used to be SOTs some of us used to worry and go on about on this list, and now would appear to be rec. kayaks that we express concern over (or more precisely, the minimalism associated with their use). I feel compelled to comment as one of my best friends just purchased a tandem recreational unit in the fall. He's a bright fellow, very safety conscious and somewhat aware of the hazards facing mariners around the shores of Vancouver Island (tides, sudden squalls, etc.). He intends paddling with his daughters (one at a time) as a way to spend quality time with them. He certainly has no intention from what I can gather, of investing in any kind of immersion apparel or safety gear. I very much doubt he will stray far from shore, and I'm certain there are no big or small crossings in store for him. He's phoned me for advice a few times on routes. As I've show up at his house a couple of times, near hypothermic, over the decades after winter storm paddling to borrow his shower, he certainly knows about the dangers of cold water immersion. While he constantly self-berates himself as a self-confessed "lower level sport" new enthusiast in my presence, I've never looked down on his purchase. I have simply maintained the minimum Coast Guard equipment standards to him for saltwater boating, and suggested he spend a tiny bit more on a couple of decent paddles (smaller shaft diameter and lighter weight) and properly fitted/comfortable PFD's. I also took him out in a borrowed sea kayak and made sure he got a good bounce from reflected seas deflecting off one of your American aircraft carriers anchored of the Victoria waterfront in some nasty chop. While I purposely scared a bit of the poop out of him, I did so with good intention -- not wanting him under any delusions or a misplaced fear factor. I certainly did not do this with any elitism in mind, and would not do this under normal circumstances. You also said: <snip> My point in my previous posts was simply that not everyone new to this sport needs to run out and buy every piece of rescue gear available to be a safe paddler. I feel that a newbie on this list could easily get the impression that they are being irresponsible and flirting with death if they do not carry a GPS, and a VHS radio, and flares and a spare paddle and paddlefloats, etc., whenever they go out paddling. ---------- I believe your original post alluded to the notion that carrying extra safety gear was illusionary in terms of making one a safer paddler -- and you questioned just how much gear one had to carry to consider themselves safe. I think Dave Kruger covered that a bit in a previous post, and pointed to some excellent resources on John Winters web site. I agree with your basic premise here, and certainly the new paddler carrying and depending upon their gear to get them out of trouble is precisely the person who might be "flirting with death". How many new paddlers have we heard about for whom the paddlefloat rescue proved to be a dismal failure in unexpected choppy waters after an unplanned exit too far from shore? Or the faithful PFD wearer overwhelmed by hypothermia, unable to reenter their kayak in cold water. I guess I've joined in this conversation as I'm wrestling with some of these issues in a personal way. I'll be finishing up my wife's kayak in the spring, and I'm kind of wondering just how much gear is going to make us a safe couple as we do a lot more paddling than we have done together in the past with just a rented boat (for her). I also wonder about some of my own adventures. While I can see Steve's point regarding skill-building paddles with a group at the mouth of the Columbia River and the lack of excessive gear being needed, I also realize that the other members of his team are kind of like your "extra safety gear". Paddling similar conditions or worse, solo, I tend to put more emphasis on preparation and equipment. I can think of dozens of heavy weather paddling episodes where I would not have gone out without redundant backups like two paddlefloats and a miniature raft (Sea Seat). With good skills operative, and judgment abilities commensurate with the intended personal goals and abilities, none of that equipment should ever be needed. But, I've blow rolls due to poor training regimes and faulty visualization skills, and have got into deep trouble from the necessarily poor judgment extent. These episodes are infrequent, but do happen -- and it was backup equipment that saved my Canadian bacon. You finish thus: <snip> And it is my belief that a new paddler would do a whole lot better investing in instruction and learning the skills then trying to purchase all of the swell toys often emphasized on this list. That's all! -------- Right you are Scott. While I guess I'll continue to give some priority to my individual equipment requirements and perceived needs, the answer for even the experienced paddler is still ongoing skill development or at least keeping skills well honed. I know Doug Alderson (one of the few instructor trainers in Canada) in our local club preaches skill development to new paddlers, and prefers not to put emphasis on new toys initially. In fact, your obvious overall tone here is to place the importance on investing in instruction and skill procurement. Funnily enough, there are many who claim that message to be an elitist one. You just can't win! Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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