Mary wrote: >>>>>>Well my CD GTS boat likes to track... I mean really likes to track straight. Turning it can be a challenge. When it is empty I have to lean hard and do sweep stroke to turn it. I noticed that when I had it heavily loaded it seemed to turn easier. It did not take a strenous knee lift. I have a couple of theories about it, but perhaps someone will have a better explanation. Theory 1 is that the boat is lower in the water so doesn't take much of a lean to get on the edge. Theory 2 is due to the extra weight it was easier to get on edge. I like my GTS but it is not an easy turning boat. Most of my kayaking is straight line point A to B so the strong tracking is great.<<<<<<<<<<<<< Theory 1 seems unlikely unless you and the gear and kayak are heavy enough that the kayak is sunk to its widest point and the kayak is also relatively narrow and rounded on the hull and deck (above the widest point) or the gear is free to shift position (like free water does). Once a kayak like this is sunk to its widest point additional lean shouldn't increase the stability much especially if the center of gravity of the paddler/gear/boat is near the midline of the hulls "cylinder" (sort of like a half sunk "rolling" log). Most kayaks get more stable and much harder to lean when loaded with gear mostly because of their lowered center of gravity. I suspect the GTS does too unless maybe it is extremely heavily loaded. Theory 2: I ask you, does your GTS get easier to put on edge when loaded? I strongly doubt it. I also bet that you will find that it is actually slower to turn a kayak when heavily loaded than when empty if you actually time how long it takes to do a 180 degree turn at cruising speed both ways (even more so if timing spinning the kayak in place). If you try this please let us know the results. Theory 3: (The one I'm about to propose) The GTS is a very stiff tracking kayak that doesn't easily maintain a turn even once the turn has been started (which was my experience--it took me 22 seconds to do a 180 degree leaned turn--and 43 seconds when I held the kayak level--using only broad forward sweep strokes on the right side--Note: the average of the over 300 hundred North American kayaks--admittedly including some real short recreational ones--that I've done this with is: 11.4 seconds leaned and 20 seconds when level. The GTS is nearly 3 standard deviations (99.7%) above the mean of North American kayaks I've tested (but the very stiffest in each measure were 38 and 55 seconds). Even when leaned, the GTS tends to still track straight unless effort is expended to keep turning it. In other words, when empty the GTS doesn't easily transfer its forward momentum into turning momentum and what turning momentum you generate with the paddle is readily dampened out by the tracking stiffness of the keel (unless you maintain the turning force). This behavior changes with a heavy gear load added because now there is a lot of mass out near the ends of the (gear laden) kayak. Once that mass is set into a rotational motion the tracking stiffness (even though it has also increased some as the keels have been sunk deeper into the water) is no longer enough to quickly kill the vastly increased rotational momentum that now can keep the kayak turning in the direction in which the turn was started. So with a heavy gear load the GTS now acts more like a more maneuverable kayak does when it is empty. For the same reasons, the very maneuverable kayak will often be more likely to tend to wander when fully loaded, even though its tracking stiffness might be just fine when it is empty. There are other factors involved as well so this loaded/unloaded difference can be counteracted to some extent by hull design as well as with a well chosen compromise between tracking stiffness and ease of turning that minimizes the penalty to be paid with each extreme. One downside to very stiff tracking can be turning that kayak during a strong wind when it is empty and the ends can be blown back at a wave crest as much as you could turn them in the trough. Faced with having to paddle in a very strong wind without a gear load I'd ballast such a kayak with genuine "Canadian Ballast Rocks" (or even a poor substitute like "U.S Waterlogged Ballast Wood" if I wasn't paddling in Canada) out near the ends of the kayak in order to increase the kayaks slug-feet-squared (although this is normally discouraged among the cognoscenti). Maybe slugs are embarrassed by their square feet and so always keep them out of sight. I've seen a lot of slugs (living in the NW) and have never seen their feet, have you? Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > Theory 3: (The one I'm about to propose) > The GTS is a very stiff tracking kayak that doesn't easily maintain a turn > even once the turn has been started (which was my experience--it took me 22 > seconds to do a 180 degree leaned turn--and 43 seconds when I held the kayak > level--using only broad forward sweep strokes on the right side Matt, do you have the numbers for the GT for comparison? Its extra beam is often offered as a reason for its easier turning. The wider midsection is supposed to allow the keel to be lifted easier and aid in turning. I've noticed a difference, but haven't seen anything like an objective test. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote: >>>>Matt, do you have the numbers for the GT for comparison? Its extra beam is often offered as a reason for its easier turning. The wider midsection is supposed to allow the keel to be lifted easier and aid in turning. I've noticed a difference, but haven't seen anything like an objective test.<<<<<<<< GTS 22 sec. leaned 43 level GT 14 sec. leaned 34 level (15 leaned with full rudder) GT XL 17 sec. leaned 32 level (20 leaned with full rudder) The GT was done in fresh water in April 93 (estimate 50 degrees) the GTS and GT XL were done in salt water in (Sept. 99 and 01--estimate temp about 50 degrees). Salt to fresh water density differences tend to cancel out as the kayak floats higher to compensate. However, there is about a 2.5% difference for each 10 degrees of water temperature difference due to the greater viscosity (stickiness) of colder water that I have to factor in if comparing or analyzing the raw data. The extra beam of the GT's certainly helps and (at least partly) for the reason you heard. Also I might be able to lean the wider kayak more before water would pour into an uncovered cockpit (which is the maximum I lean during the test--if I can do that much without excessive risk of capsizing given the cockpit bracing situation--because that way I can compare a kayak even though I don't have a spraydeck to fit it. Given the same width cockpit I could most likely lean the GT more because of the wider middle too. Several other factors could be involved as well such as more rocker or shallower angles at the keels but just the one proposed to you could account for this difference. I noted it was windy the day I tested the GT (but not the GT XL). Wave action might have sped up the GT's leaned turn a little bit (and with a stiff tracking boat I'd do the test at an angle where the wind might help me do less work rather than more--but I think without waves, in general, a wind slows me down a bit especially with the level turns). The wind might have slowed the level turn somewhat especially if I had to turn the bow into it at any point during the 180. Even if I avoided that the stern would be slowed when I was more sideways to the wind. I get real tired of stiff tracking boats when faced with testing many of them in a row through three 360 degree spins and three 180 degree turns with each kayak one after the other. Probably the reason I didn't test the turn with the rudder down with the GTS was that I didn't feel like putting my all into another long hard (but slow) turn again right away (although sometimes I don't get rudder down data because the rudder is broken or the pedals have become jammed with sand on beach demo days). Sometimes I cheat a bit with the real slow turning boats. I spin a 180 in place and multiply by two. I always do a full 180 on all the "at speed" turns though. I also count strokes on the spins but I have found that strokes can vary a whole lot more than the time will when testing the same kayak repeatedly. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt writes at the end of an exhaustive tome on the GTS turning potential: >Faced with having to paddle in a very strong wind without a gear load I'd >ballast such a kayak with genuine "Canadian Ballast Rocks" (or even a poor >substitute like "U.S Waterlogged Ballast Wood" if I wasn't paddling in >Canada) out near the ends of the kayak in order to increase the kayaks >slug-feet-squared (although this is normally discouraged among the >cognoscenti). Maybe slugs are embarrassed by their square feet and so >always keep them out of sight. I've seen a lot of slugs (living in the >NW) and have never seen their feet, have you? Matt, can you are you suggesting that we might employ PNW slugs as active aids in our quest to turn the GTS and other maneuverability-challenged craft? It's certainly an interesting new idea. The "Genuine Canadian Ballast Rocks" have served many paddlers well for many years. As you know, they are quite a bulletproof design. I am saddened though, to see that the ever-elusive Norwegian Love Trolls were not included in your recommendations. Possibly they were not available at the time of your study. In the ANE (Atlantic North East) we have discovered that our beloved Norwegian Love Trolls help us comply with the "multiple-use" dictate which all thinking outdoors-folk seek to embrace. (Please forgive the obvious pun.) As you know, the Norwegian Love Trolls are but one variety of an Active Ballast/Trim Management System. But their personality and playful nature make them a much more interesting solution to my mind than Genuine Canadian Ballast Rocks. I concede that there is the argument that Canadian Ballast Rocks require less maintainance and have a longer service life. I would be most interested to hear your opinions and those of the other cognoscenti on their relative merits of some of the Active Ballast/Trim Management Systems (AB/TMS) versus the more common Passive Ballast Systems (PBS). Jed, who is always smilin' when I paddle with those frisky trolls. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At Wednesday, 16 January 2002, "Jed" <jluby_at_teamnorthatlantic.com> wrote: [SNIP] >I am saddened though, to see that the ever-elusive Norwegian Love Trolls >were not included in your recommendations. Possibly they were not >available at the time of your study. > Surely you jest? Anyone with even a bit of experience would agree to the superiority of the German Love Troll. The cap shape on the Norwegian model is sure to cause planing at anything above what I, and any other proficient paddler, would consider acceptable cruising speed. The Norwegian model is also known to hamper the 180 degree turn in a GTS, cause paddle flutter, tendonitis *and* even break down epoxy over time. I hear even Derek Hutchinson is going to endorse German Love Trolls in the next edition to the book. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello Patrick! Could you explain me what these Norwegian or German Love Trolls are? IŽve never heard from them. Stones oder Toys or jokes or what? Hey, are you still nearby Amsterdam (Utrecht as I remember)? The BOOT 2002 in Duesseldorf had just began, isnŽt soo far away for you. Come along and have a look. IŽll be there tomorrow and next Saturday (26th). The Exhibition ends jan 27th. All the best bye Jochen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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