From: "Michael Edelman" <mje_at_spamcop.net> > How about, "when a boat displaces significantly less water than > its actual weight". Of course, then we need to figure out what > "significantly" means.... This is exactly what is measured when we see the CG rise. In very general terms, semi-planing is when the boat is displacing less than the maximum and planing is when it reaches maximum. Trim changes as well and the nature of resistance changes from wave and skin friction dominated to spray and skin friction dominated. None of this defines planing, but describes its behavior. But remember, the real issue is not what planing is, but what the difference between planing and surfing is. I think most folks can accept the definition of planing. They've been talking around it for a while. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: > In very > general terms, semi-planing is when the boat is displacing less > than the maximum and planing is when it reaches maximum. Trim > changes as well and the nature of resistance changes from wave > and skin friction dominated to spray and skin friction dominated. > None of this defines planing, but describes its behavior. > > But remember, the real issue is not what planing is, but what the > difference between planing and surfing is. I think most folks > can accept the definition of planing. They've been talking around > it for a while. Agreed, and I think all the definitions given for planing have been essentially equivalent with the exception of specifying exactly where the transition zone begins and ends. I would define surfing as occuring when the boat is propelled forward relative to the water as a result of its position on the forward portion of a wave. I.e. the boat moves forward because gravity pulls it down the sloping face of the wave (which can be either advancing or standing). As with planing, there's room to quibble about how fast and/or far the boat must be propelled before it's 'really' surfing. Given these definitions, a kayak could be 1) neither surfing nor planing (the most common situation) 2) surfing but not planing (typ. because the speed is not sufficient to plane) 3) planing but not surfing (usu. needs a sail or a towline) 4) both planing and surfing. My disagreement with John's statement was not that he distinguished between planing and surfing but because I felt he implied that condition 4) could not exist. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Peter Rathmann" <prathman_at_attbi.com> > I would define surfing as occuring when the boat is propelled forward > relative to the water as a result of its position on the forward portion > of a wave. I.e. the boat moves forward because gravity pulls it down the > sloping face of the wave (which can be either advancing or standing). As > with planing, there's room to quibble about how fast and/or far the boat > must be propelled before it's 'really' surfing. Actually, that probably isn't surfing, though most people refer to it as such (Hey - might as well stir up the nest a little!) I guess we have to differentiate between riding on a breaking wave versus riding on a non-breaking wave. Correct me if I'm wrong on this: (As if I have to ask:-) You move on a non-breaking wave because gravity pulls you downhill, as you described above. In general, however, you can't sustain this motion without adding some paddle power. You move on a breaking wave because of both gravity and the fact that the water is moving down the face of the wave. That water flow is not at a constant rate and is faster up the wave than down near the trough. As a result, the stern can be pushed while the bow is being retarded by slower (or even reverse motion) water near (in) the trough. I'm not at all certain, but I would guess that you can only reasonably surf (plane?) on a breaking wave. I doubt if a non-breaking wave can generate enough speed. This gets back to Bob's objection to John's statement about surfing/ planing on a wave. I can see that surfing can imply that you are on a breaking wave and the forward portion of the hull is planing, but the aft portion isn't. This doesn't neatly fit into the definition of planing (without specifying which definition :-). It also differentiates on whether the water propulses or drags on the vessel. Since surf around these parts is either laughable or terrifying (no in between on Lake Ontario or Georgian Bay), I'll leave it to the Left Coast surf dudes to flesh this out a bit. Kevin?, Shawn? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> > Actually, that probably isn't surfing, though most people refer > to it as such (Hey - might as well stir up the nest a little!) > You bet that will stir it up!! If surfing on a wave isn't really surfing on a wave, then I have no idea what surfing really is... ;) > I guess we have to differentiate between riding on a breaking wave > versus riding on a non-breaking wave. Correct me if I'm wrong on > this: (As if I have to ask:-) > Okay, you asked. There is no difference between surfing on a breaking wave or on a green wave. The style of surfing may change (front surfing vs. side surfing), but technically they are both surfing if the wave is providing forward motion. On small waves, or on very shallow sloped waves, that forward motion might only occur for a few seconds before the surf ends. But even that is still technically surfing. > You move on a non-breaking wave because gravity pulls you downhill, > as you described above. In general, however, you can't sustain > this motion without adding some paddle power. > Again, you are dead wrong. It is entirely possible to surf for hours on an unbroken standing wave, and surf contests generally only score points while the surfer is on the green part of the wave. I am starting to think that you really ought to spend some time surfing in reality. Even watching a kayak surfing video would be helpful if waves are hard to find. You are not operating on a proper mental paradigm (for surfing), which could be easily amended. Cheers, Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> > > You move on a non-breaking wave because gravity pulls you downhill, > > as you described above. In general, however, you can't sustain > > this motion without adding some paddle power. > > Again, you are dead wrong. It is entirely possible to surf for hours on an > unbroken standing wave, and surf contests generally only score points while > the surfer is on the green part of the wave. Are you talking about river standing waves or non-breaking ocean waves? I was thinking only of ocean waves (I guess I should have mentioned that.) River waves get lots of velocity from the drops that aren't available in an ocean wave (open ocean, let's not get into tidal stuff). Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:34 PM -0500 1/18/02, Michael Daly wrote: >From: "Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> > >> > You move on a non-breaking wave because gravity pulls you downhill, >> > as you described above. In general, however, you can't sustain >> > this motion without adding some paddle power. >> >> Again, you are dead wrong. It is entirely possible to surf for hours on an >> unbroken standing wave, and surf contests generally only score points while >> the surfer is on the green part of the wave. > >Are you talking about river standing waves or non-breaking ocean waves? >I was thinking only of ocean waves (I guess I should have mentioned that.) >River waves get lots of velocity from the drops that aren't available >in an ocean wave (open ocean, let's not get into tidal stuff). > You can surf on non-breaking ocean waves without paddling. But the boat needs to do what I call "planing" otherwise there is generally too much drag. This is generally in a place where some waves are breaking and the wave I am on was breaking or will break in the future, but it is not necessary that it be actively breaking to be able to surf it. The best surfing is if you can get in the sweet spot below any breaking. It is not necessary to get a boost from the moving water in the break. You can't do it completely without paddling. Like a board surfer, you must paddle enough to get up to nearly the wave speed, but once you have caught the wave you should be able to surf in the same way a board surfer does. The picture Rob linked to is a good example. Also look at the slope of the path that surfer is following. Since he is surfing almost parallel to the wave he is descending a very gradual slope. Since he is planing the board has very little drag and very little slope is required to keep him going. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> > Are you talking about river standing waves or non-breaking ocean waves? > I was thinking only of ocean waves (I guess I should have mentioned that.) > River waves get lots of velocity from the drops that aren't available > in an ocean wave (open ocean, let's not get into tidal stuff). I was talking about both, though it might be tough to sustain an hour long surf on an ocean wave. But it doesn't matter at all to the surfer. The only difference will be that on an ocean wave, the surfer will move over the ground, while on the river, the surfer will stay in one place relative to the ground. But he or she will still be surfing! Based on what you said in the above paragraph, I still think your paradigms are wrong. I don't know how to make you understand, short of showing you first hand. Check my definition for surfing, which I just posted. Perhaps that will make more sense. Cheers, Kevin Whilden *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Rathmann wrote: > Given these definitions, a kayak could be > 1) neither surfing nor planing (the most common situation) > 2) surfing but not planing (typ. because the speed is not sufficient to > plane) > 3) planing but not surfing (usu. needs a sail or a towline) > 4) both planing and surfing. > > My disagreement with John's statement was not that he distinguished > between planing and surfing but because I felt he implied that condition > 4) could not exist. Hi Guys, My initial question was the use of the word planing in a context that I can't remember now, what it was, but its use, with my background, didn't make sense. I was trying to understand. And the thread devolved into a definition of planing. I wasn't smart enough to envision the different logical end points you have defined above. I'm interested to see where this ends up, as I have zero experience in surf. FWIW, I am very interested in surfing with my kayak. My only experience was one day last summer when I launched and landed twice off the beach on North Carolina's Outer Banks. The surf was mild and calm. I'll have you know that those little shore break waves that hit your knee when you are standing at the waterline, HIT you in the face when you're sitting in your kayak! And the 8' of hull sitting out front of you is a great lever arm. It took one person holding the bow just to let me put on the spray skirt and I still went out with a lot of water in the cockpit. Once I got beyond the shore break, the swells were very easy to move around in. Coming back through the shore break, I landed nicely once and broached and tumbled right at the last once. At one point I had my one and only ride on a BIG wave, please put this in context! It was bigger than me! However some kids wouldn't even boogie board on it because it was too small. Anyway, when I started down the face, the kayak started to broach to the left (port :-)) and I just stuck my paddle on a low brace on the left and skidded across the face of the wave for what must have been 2 nano seconds, but seemed like 15 minutes. I was too worried about staying upright to notice if I was surfing or planing :-). BUT it was a Blast! I know that the shape of hull and chines will play a very major part in your ability to control your movement down the face of a wave. I am looking forward to your continued discussion because "I know nothing" Sgt. Shultz - Hogans Heroes I have always loved the lines of a greenland hull, shallow v and hard chines. I've always wondered, if you increased the radius of the bilge from 0 degrees, at what radius does a hard chine stop giving you the carving benefits of a sharp angle, (or stop acting like a hard chine?) I don't know enough to ask the right question! When does a Greenland hull stop being a Greenland hull? I can remember when I was shopping for my first boat and naïvely asked the question; What does "modified" greenland hull mean? and couldn't get an answer that made sense. John Blackburn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> > > > Are you talking about river standing waves or non-breaking ocean waves? > > I was thinking only of ocean waves (I guess I should have mentioned that.) > > River waves get lots of velocity from the drops that aren't available > > in an ocean wave (open ocean, let's not get into tidal stuff). > > I was talking about both, though it might be tough to sustain an hour long > surf on an ocean wave. But it doesn't matter at all to the surfer. The > only difference will be that on an ocean wave, the surfer will move over the > ground, while on the river, the surfer will stay in one place relative to > the ground. But he or she will still be surfing! On re-reading, and seeing Nick's comments, I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote a tad. When I said "In general, however, you can't sustain this motion without adding some paddle power", I was specifically including all waves. You're pointing out the case of a relatively large, steep wave. Most smaller waves can't generate enough force to keep you going, as you state in your definition of surfing. In that case, which I have experienced many, many times, extending your ride means paddling to get back into the sweet spot on the wave. The kind of waves I get locally (read: _good_ waves!) can give me a ride of up to perhaps a hundred meters (WAG, not measured) or a football field, with occasional paddle strokes to stay in place. After that, I loose it and can't paddle hard enough to keep up, so I wait for the next one. Breaking waves are practically non-existant, as the beaches are too short and steep to get good surf, just dumping surf and the ride ends in rock rather than sand! The few ocean waves, non-breaking, that I've surfed (Nova Scotia Eastern Shore) were bigger than anything I've had locally, but so long in wavelength that the slope is not conducive to a long ride - not enough power. A sustained ride needs enough slope to generate velocity, as you state in your definition. If you want to plane, the wave speed must comfortably exceed the kayak's hull speed in order to stay with you. Otherwise you either won't plane or you'll plane off the wave into the trough ahead and loose speed. Around here, wave speeds tend to be slow; I can often paddle faster than the small waves, hence planing isn't a consideration. One key point I was trying to make in the original post was the difference in breaking and non-breaking waves in that one features gravity induced speed and the other features a rapid downhill flow of water on the face as well. I wonder if this could be the difference between planing and surfing (though surfers and others ignore the difference). Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: > If you want to plane, the wave speed must comfortably exceed the > kayak's hull speed in order to stay with you. Otherwise you either won't plane > or you'll plane off the wave into the trough ahead and loose speed. Around > here, wave speeds tend to be slow; I can often paddle faster than the small > waves, hence planing isn't a consideration. No, wave speed doesn't have to exceed the hull speed in order to plane. Your speed relative to the water must exceed the hull speed, but that can be much faster than the wave speed. You get up to speed by going down the front of the wave, but then you can turn to be at an angle to the wave so you are moving both with the wave and laterally along the wave. Look at the picture that was posted by Rob - the surfer there is moving much faster than the wave because he's moving mainly parallel to the wave front. > > One key point I was trying to make in the original post was the difference in > breaking and non-breaking waves in that one features gravity induced speed and > the other features a rapid downhill flow of water on the face as well. > I wonder if this could be the difference between planing and surfing (though > surfers and others ignore the difference). Look again at Rob's picture. There is no downhill flow of water in the part of the wave where the surfer is located. His propulsion comes only from gravity pulling him diagonally down along the face of the wave - in fact the water in his location would be moving backwards into the wave. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Peter Rathmann" <prathman_at_attbi.com> > Michael Daly wrote: > > If you want to plane, the wave speed must comfortably exceed the > > kayak's hull speed in order to stay with you. Otherwise you either won't plane > > or you'll plane off the wave into the trough ahead and loose speed. Around > > here, wave speeds tend to be slow; I can often paddle faster than the small > > waves, hence planing isn't a consideration. > > No, wave speed doesn't have to exceed the hull speed in order to plane. > Your speed relative to the water must exceed the hull speed, but that > can be much faster than the wave speed. You get up to speed by going > down the front of the wave, but then you can turn to be at an angle to > the wave so you are moving both with the wave and laterally along the > wave. Look at the picture that was posted by Rob - the surfer there is > moving much faster than the wave because he's moving mainly parallel to > the wave front. That's a _breaking_ wave. Kevin and I have been discussing non-breaking waves in this context. For a non-breaking wave, I can see that this could happen if the wave is big enough. The wave would still have to be moving fast enough for you to have time to accelerate to planing speed before turning. I tried that with a 25 foot sailboat off Cape May years ago, but couldn't keep the momentum. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:26 PDT