G'Day, Thanks very much indeed to everyone for their advice and their summaries. I've been thinking about how what has been said applies to the weaknesses in my technique. So will summarise my situation and then ask some more questions. - My boat tracks very straight even when edged if I am not using some kind of turning stroke - The most I can edge this boat, which is usually carrying some load in the rear hatch, is to get the coaming to the level of the water line. I can't edge the boat to get the coaming below the water line without leaning as well. If I increase the thickness of knee pads my feet go to sleep although I'm still modifying along the lines suggested in earlier posts. - If the boat is leaned it will almost turn on a dime (20c in Australia:~) - I've got no problem with straight arm paddling or body rotation or locking the shoulders to the body as I use an "Olympic" stroke unless in rough water and have practised this lots. Despite this I do extend the paddle for rotation strokes. >From what is being said on Paddlewise I think my real problem is not leaning enough with a good enough support component in the stroke so information on blade angle and body lean and their variation as the paddle passes through the water would be particularly welcome I'ld be very interested in what degrees of turn with a forward sweep are achievable if anyone happens to have assessed this Also I'm confused as to whether the first or last part of the stroke has most turning effect. >From what Marinell says it sounds like lean turns in rough water are probably not reasonable and using the waves is a better option. Thanks again for all the advice it is very much appreciated All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Peter, - My boat tracks very straight even when edged if I am not using some kind of turning stroke It is not uncommon for a boat to require a sweep stroke to initiate a turn before edging will have any effect. SO it's OK and normal to need to perform a sweep stroke to get your boat to turn. - The most I can edge this boat, which is usually carrying some load in the rear hatch, is to get the coaming to the level of the water line. I can't edge the boat to get the coaming below the water line without leaning as well. If I increase the thickness of knee pads my feet go to sleep although I'm still modifying along the lines suggested in earlier posts. To a lesser or greater extent all edging is leaning. We edge our boats by moving our center of gravity to one side or the other. The boat reacts by listing, lowering the edge beneath the center of gravity. Move your torso to the left the boat edges on the left. People describe this as lifting the opposite knee, but that happens after you move your CG (Center of Gravity)and is really a way to keep from falling over. The boat does not know or care if your torso is vertical or leaning at an angle. It only cares about where your CG is relative to the boats center of bouyancy and the degree of heel (edging). - If the boat is leaned it will almost turn on a dime If you need to lean to get your boat edged enough to turn quickly, then have at it. Lot's of shorter paddlers do the same thing as do paddlers in relatively wide boats. -From what is being said on Paddlewise I think my real problem is not leaning enough with a good enough support component in the stroke so information on blade angle and body lean and their variation as the paddle passes through the water would be particularly welcome. I heard things a bit differently. Steve Scherrer taked about moving the stern rather than the bow. I'll let him go into it in greater detail but I agree completely with his explaination. I will say just this, to turn the boat while moving forward one must move the stern, not the bow. To try and move the bow is a waste of time. I would consider two things; firstly seakayaks are designed to run straight when on an even keel. So to turn you need to edge the boat. A little edging is good, more edging is better. This will lift the fine ends out of the water, shortening the waterline and present a much more manouverable (sp) hull form to the water. What ever support is gained from your paddle is done at the expense of turning or propulsion. If you use your paddle for support during a sweep then you are not getting the most turning force out of that sweep. Many paddlers set their paddle for some support during a sweep but it's most effective to keep the paddle vertical to the path and apply support only as needed by rotating the paddle blade. -I'ld be very interested in what degrees of turn with a forward sweep are achievable if anyone happens to have assessed this. After I initiate my turn with a sweep stroke on the opposite side, I can ride the carved turn for 90 degrees or so. This works going forward or in reverse. Good Luck, Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I was always taught that a boat turned around it's center of flotation, which is somewhere around your rear end! You can't turn a boat without turning both ends. John Blackburn Jed wrote: > Hi Peter, > > - My boat tracks very straight even when edged if > I am not using some kind of turning stroke > > It is not uncommon for a boat to require a sweep stroke to initiate a turn > before edging will have any effect. SO it's OK and normal to need to perform > a sweep stroke to get your boat to turn. > > - The most I can edge this boat, which is usually > carrying some load in the rear hatch, is to get > the coaming to the level of the water line. I > can't edge the boat to get the coaming below the > water line without leaning as well. If I increase > the thickness of knee pads my feet go to sleep > although I'm still modifying along the lines > suggested in earlier posts. > > To a lesser or greater extent all edging is leaning. We edge our boats by > moving our center of gravity to one side or the other. The boat reacts by > listing, lowering the edge beneath the center of gravity. Move your torso to > the left the boat edges on the left. People describe this as lifting the > opposite knee, but that happens after you move your CG (Center of > Gravity)and is really a way to keep from falling over. > > The boat does not know or care if your torso is vertical or leaning at an > angle. It only cares about where your CG is relative to the boats center of > bouyancy and the degree of heel (edging). > > - If the boat is leaned it will almost turn on a dime > > If you need to lean to get your boat edged enough to turn quickly, then > have at it. Lot's of shorter paddlers do the same thing as do paddlers in > relatively wide boats. > > -From what is being said on Paddlewise I think my real problem is not > leaning > enough with a good enough support component in the stroke so information on > blade angle and body lean and their variation as the paddle passes through > the water would be particularly welcome. > > I heard things a bit differently. Steve Scherrer taked about moving the > stern rather than the bow. I'll let him go into it in greater detail but I > agree completely with his explaination. I will say just this, to turn the > boat while moving forward one must move the stern, not the bow. To try and > move the bow is a waste of time. > > I would consider two things; firstly seakayaks are designed to run straight > when on an even keel. So to turn you need to edge the boat. A little edging > is good, more edging is better. This will lift the fine ends out of the > water, shortening the waterline and present a much more manouverable (sp) > hull form to the water. > > What ever support is gained from your paddle is done at the expense of > turning or propulsion. If you use your paddle for support during a sweep > then you are not getting the most turning force out of that sweep. Many > paddlers set their paddle for some support during a sweep but it's most > effective to keep the paddle vertical to the path and apply support only as > needed by rotating the paddle blade. > > -I'ld be very interested in what degrees of turn with a forward sweep are > achievable if anyone happens to have assessed this. > > After I initiate my turn with a sweep stroke on the opposite side, I can > ride the carved turn for 90 degrees or so. This works going forward or in > reverse. > > Good Luck, > Jed > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi John, John wrote: >I was always taught that a boat turned around it's center of flotation, which is >somewhere around your rear end! You can't turn a boat without turning both ends. While it's my belief that the boat actually turns around the boat/paddler's center or gravity when at rest, descibing this as it's center of floatation is close enough for me. With regard to turning the boat by turning both ends, this is true *as long as the boat is not moving* but different forces come into play when the boat is moving. When the boat is *moving forward* there exists a bow wave that has a similar effect as pushing the bow deeper into the water, retarding any tendency for the bow to move left or right appreciably. The first part of a forward sweep is pushing against this bow wave and having little effect. The middle part of the sweep cannot turn the boat either because the bow wave again fights any effort to move the bow left or right. So the middle part of the sweep tends to move you forward. But the last part of the sweep is acting against the stern that is not "anchored" by a bow wave and may in fact be in a wave trough. This makes it possible to pull the stern towards the paddle during the last phase of the forward sweep, in effect performing a stern draw. A clear example of this can be seen by taking your boat up to speed, say about 4 knots. Then try to turn the boat by doing only the first 1/2 of a forward sweep. Count the number of 1/2 sweeps that are required to turn the boat 180 degrees. Then perform the same test only this time use only the last 1/2 of the sweep stroke. To keep things easy, try to do the turns with no edging of the boat and be sure to take the last 1/2 of the sweep all the way to the stern. Think hit the boat with the paddle. Most people find that the boats turn with significantly fewer strokes when they use the last 1/2 of the sweeps compared to the first 1/2 of the sweep stroke. There are other people on this list, much more technically inclined than I, that can do a much better job of explaining why this works. I only know that it works and my own simple model that helps me understand why. Hopefully one of our engineers will step in and correct/clarify my explaination. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One of the goals of leaning a boat is essentially to give it more rocker. Even a kayak with a very straight keel will appear to the water to have a lot of rocker when leaned to one side. The degree of lean or edging required to get this effect will depend on the boat, and leaning by itself may not be enough to make some boats turn, you will still need to apply a steering force with a sweep. As you turn, your center of gravity wants to stay going straight. This can actually accelerate the rate the boat turns. As you initiate your turn the bow will be exposed to water pressure on the side that is on the outside of the turn, actually so will stern. But if you lean forward slightly it will drive the bow down, causing the pressure on the bow to increase while decreasing the pressure on the stern. This by itself might be enough to get the boat turning. You will also may get a small amount bow-down pressure just do to deceleration (like applying brakes in a car, where the car leans squats in front slightly). To continue the turn, the stern needs to slide sideways through the water faster than the bow. Leaning towards the outside of the turn will turn any "skeginess" at the stern away from the sideways moving water making it easier to get by. But if the general flow of the water is still along the length of the boat, it will want to stay going that way. You somehow need to break the stern free of the flowing water and get it moving some other direction. The best way to do this is pulling in strongly towards the back of the boat at the end of your sweep stroke. Once the water is flowing side ways across the stern and the stern is swinging outwards more freely it will tend to keep doing that, until you change something. To stop the turning you generally only need to return the kayak to an even keel, although some boats will continue turning until you stop it with a slight sweep on the other side. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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