Re: [Paddlewise] TENT HUNT - "PLEASE" (again!)

Doug Loyd, who I usually agree with, but now is quite wet on this one,
wrote:
------------
Rob, that's Mr. Lloyd to you -- and spelt with two L's. Me wet on this
one? Heck, I'm always wet -- paddle a Nordkapp, you know!  :-)

I'll respond to your comments by placing a "Doug says:" to differentiate
my response. Those who are fed up with this thread can scroll/delete as
they choose. BTW, I'm not infallible, and I do tend toward defective
logic on occasion. That's where the checks and balances come into it on
a listserver like Paddlewise. Furthermore, I tend to be a bit
prepositional at times. However, I think I may have misrepresented
myself with my "top ten lists" as I was keeping them purposely short --
so didn't give context to the points.

Your post rejoiner Rob:

- -- top ten lists:

(My comments follow DL's statement)

Non-freestanding tent
1.   Very difficult erecting in high winds. HUH? NOT SPECIFIC TO
CONSTRUCTION FORMAT.
Doug says: I have a lot more options with a free standing tent erecting
it in high winds. I can hide behind a wind break where the ground cover
negates placement, yet provides the shelter to erect the tent. I then
move it to the desired location. I can erect it under a kitchen
camp-tarp, then move it to the desired location very easily.

2.   Difficulty dealing with stake-out lines with wet, numb
hands/fingers. FOR CANVAS WALL TENTS MAYBE, BUT NOT QUALITY NFS DESIGNS.
I CAN JUST SEE DOUG IN A POWDERED WIG AND TRI CORNERED HAT ERECTING HIS
REVOLUTIONARY WAR ERA NFS.
Doug says: You must have me confused with my father-in-law! He still
tries to lend me his old canvas tent, waxing lyrical about trips long
ago and shooting bears from the doorway. look, anything with a bunch of
excess lines that can tangle up while packing and unpacking, just don't
cut it with me. I find even the guy lines on mt FS tent enough hassle.
But you are correct, a good NFS tent is a minimum of fuss. A good FS
tent is even less of a fuss.

3.   Frozen stake-out lines. OH BOY, THAT FROZEN PARACHUTE CORD IS A
REAL DOOZY!
Doug says: What? Does this mean you agree! Great! No need to proselytize
you on at least that point.  :-)

4.   Tangled stake-out lines. YOU'D HAVE TO BE A REAL CLOD TO TANGLE UP
3 FEET OF PARACHUTE CORD.
Doug says: True dude. But the problem is all the 3-foot lengths tangled
together. Again, depends on the design. Regardless, the more lines, the
more hassles, so choose your NFS tent wisely. Ya man!

5.   More prone to soak-out in heavy rain prior to full erection (of
tent). ANY ONE WITH CAMP SENSE SHOULD KNOW HOW TO PUT THE FLY OVER THE
BODY TO PROTECT FROM RAIN. ANY BUT SINGLE WALL TENTS HAVE THIS PROBLEM.
Doug says: True you savvy guy, you. But in a super-soaker rain storm
with high winds and pooling water, I still feel there are more options
open to you with a FS tent. I can slip a long segmented pole section
into the tent pole "tunnel" and have a good portion of the tent up of
the wet ground quickly. A lot of these issues resolve with a good tent
design and a little savvy, and certainly some of the issues stem from
solo camping in windy, wet areas.

6.   Footprint generally bigger therefore less placement options. WRONG:
A FOOT PRINT IS A FOOTPRINT, CONSTRUCTION TYPES OF EQUAL SQARE FOOT
PRINT TAKE UP THE SAME SPACE.
Doug says: Now I'm at a loss. Unless you are simply considering the
floor pattern. I was including the area required for the extra guy lines
with respect to the NFS tent. Lets face it, there's a lot of
nitty-critty stuff that goes on erecting a tent that we don't add into
the equation here just thinking about it. Rocks buried in the sand or
dirt, that just happens to be in the spot you need to drive in the
stake(s) with your NFS tent, often mean repositioning delays.

7.   Line tensioners slipping in night wind -- clumped up tent=poor
condensation dissipation. DOUG, I'M SORRY YOU HAD A REAL PIECE OF TRASH
FOR A NFS, BUT THEY ARE NOT ALL LIKE THIS.
Doug says: Granted. I covered that in my last post where I was taken to
task for improper comparison issues. Most FS tents are a little on the
trashy side, but some campers like their tents and women that way.
Perhaps its a country thing.

8.   More lines to trip over, and uneven terrain difficulties more
acute. HUH? A TWISTED NIGHT OF SLEEP IS A TWISTED NIGHT OF SLEEP. DON'T
BLAME NFS TENTS ON THIS.
Doug says: Guess you never tripped over a tent guy line and spilled
macaroni and cheese all over your tent fly, eh? Of course not. You are a
savvy camper and don't cook near your tent   :-) As fer terrain, I find
there often isn't much choice. Some of the Inside Passage spots have
terrible campsites. A FS tent, I find, is a bit more malleable and
conducive to overall shape retention in these situations, not to mention
easier to "dial in" in a restricted spot as you (okay, me) tries to find
that perfect compromise.

9.   Some designs require stake-out of main tent, and _then_ the fly --
better land early in the day! THIS IS ALMOST FUNNY. YOU ARE JOKING?
RIGHT?
Doug says: Okay, are you insulting my last NFS tent?

10. Looks of derision and pity from fellow paddlers at camp. ...AS YOU
PULL OUT A QUALITY NFS TENT THAT GOES UP FASTER, IS LIGHTER, AND JUST AS
USEFUL AS THERE FS TENTS.
Doug says: Look, I was really hurt by some of my friends comments years
ago. I still have unresolved issues with this, you know. Please respect
that fragility.

Freestanding tent
1.  More options with placement and moving it after erecting the tent.
WRONG. QUALITY NFS TENTS MOVE JUST AS EASILY.
Doug says: Maybe. I'd like to see it someday. I'm just getting used to
giving looks of derision and pity to fellow paddlers that haven't
upgraded to good FS tents.

2.  Higher wind ratings. WRONG. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CONSTRUCTION
FORMAT, BUT EVERYTHING TO DO WITH SEASON RATING GIVEN TO TENT.
Doug says: What do most of the high altitude climbers prefer?

3.  Fast set up. IF YOU CAN BEAT A SINGLEWALL TENT, THEN I'D AGREE, BUT
SINCE NOT, YOU'RE BACK THERE IN THE SAME TIME RATING AS A QUALITY NFS.
Doug says: Usually, the FS tent is faster. I'm not just comparing my old
NFS tent, but some of the others I've seen. Guess I really do need to
see a top-notch NFS tent in action. They are hard to find in my neck of
the woods.

4.  Usually more compact for packing. WRONG. SQARE FOOTAGE (THE AMOUNT
OF MATERIAL ONE HAS TO CRAM INTO A DRYBAG)HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TENT
CONSTRUCTION FORMAT.
Doug says: Okay. Got me. I was thinking of my old NFS unit.

5.  Easier to dry out in morning sun as one can easily present different
faces and bottom to sun. OH YES, THAT FREE STANDING GEOMETRY HAS A REAL
EFFECT ON THE RATE OF DESSICATION! C'MON DOUG!
Doug says: Hey, it works for me. I used to hate hanging my old NFS tent
from a tree or large bush. Too many chances to rip the delicate nylon on
a snag pulling it back down, and there is no way wet nylon dries as fast
all folded up on itself, hanging as opposed to shape-retained air
drying. Okay, maybe I need to move away from my wet coast. I'd head down
to live in So Cal, but Scott would be standing on the beaches at my
launch points, giving me looks of derision and pity because of all my
excess safety gear.

6.  Easier to initially place ground sheet and then keep in place (mine
clips right to the bottom of the tent). IT'S CALLED AN *ADD ON SALE*,
ALL OUTDOOR RETAILER SALESPEOPLE ARE TRAINED TO LOAD YOU UP WITH OPTIONS
AFTER YOU SELECT THE TENT. WE MUST HAVE HAD THE SAME GUY CAUSE HE SOLD
ME THE SAME CLIP ON FLOOR FOR MY NFS TENT.ARE'NT WE SUCKERS, I COULD
HAVE MADE MINE WITH
TYVECK AND GROMMETS FOR 2 BUCKS.
Doug says: You definitely got me there. Damn, my wife said the same
thing. I told her I really needed the made-to-fit, propriety ground
sheet. Please don't tell her, nor my father in law. So, with all your
knowledge, do you work in the outdoor retail business? If so, I help
support you, you know.

7.  Night star-gaze versions (lots of netting on top) are fun, and the
fly is easily added later if clouds move in. STAR GAZING IS NOT THE
EXCLUSIVE FIEFDOM OF THE WELL TO DO SET TRAVELING WITH FS TENTS. US LOW
RENT NFS TYPES LIKE TO DO THAT TOO. IT'S REALLY THE CAREER, FAMILY,
BILLS THAT PREVENTS STAR
GAZING, NOT NFS TENTS.
Doug says: I'm not so sure Rob. Those looks of derision and pity at my
old NFS tent have left an indelible impression on me. It took me years
before I could lift my head from the shame and look heavenward!

8.  No main ridgepole, therefor better distribution of sideways wind
sheer forces. I DON'T HAVE ONE OF THESE EITHER. I GUESS THE MFR WANTED
MY NFS TO HANDLE SIDE WINDSHEAR BETTER.
Doug says: Ah, now I get it. So you do have your own NFS tent. That's
why you are soooo defensive :-) And I'm really getting convinced you
don't like my old NFS tent.

9.  Quick tear down for fast dawn camp breaks (very important for open
water paddling). BOY, THOSE NFS GUYS ARE REALLY SLOWIN US DOWN. LET'S
DUMP THEM IN THE NEXT TIDAL RAPID AHEAD.
Doug says: Now there you go again, agreeing with me!

10.Thumbs up from paddling partners...FROM WATCHING TOO MANY HAPPY DAYS
RERUNS.
Doug says: No!!!!!!!!!!  The thumbs up are from when I dumped the tent
in the tidal rapid!

Some general things to consider about freestanding (OR NON FREESTANDING)

tent:
1.  Buy aluminum poles (of course) -- but take a spare section.
2.  Overall joined pole lengths are best if each unit is the same
overall length for faster setups under duress.
3.  All poles are not created equally. Some all too easily have their
male joints pushed back inside the pole after bonding agents let go,
leaving the female furrel (sp?) end of the adjoining pole to easily
break when the overall lengths are curved under pressure. Pay the bucks
for a good tent. SO TRUE
Doug says: yes, but the FS tents I've encountered can really put a lot
of stress on the joints. Not sure if this is true with the NFS variety.

4.  Some offshore tents have really poor thread counts for the
stitching. Get the best you can within your budget or better. Knock offs
are not as good if you look a little closer, though don't pay full price
for top name brands if avoidable.
5.  Get as waterproof a floor as you can. Sealed seams are much
preferred.
6.  Cheaper tents and even certain expensive designs allow certain spots
to make contact between tent walls and fly, which then drip on you and
your gear.
7.  Avoid tents that use a lot of velcro to align fly to main tent.
Tents just don't stay taught enough to retain alignment. DOUG'S ANTI
VELCRO NOW, I SEE!
Doug says: Noooo. Some designs are just way to dependent upon this
modern miracle that wears out. Then again, Matt took a bunch of us to
task once for comparing boats, when really, some of us have not been
exposed to that many different varieties and designs. This could be tru
of me and tents. Could be,. I'm not admitting to anything.

8.  Get a tent with enough headroom and overhead arm swing room for
proper clothing changes, etc. OR EXPECT A BOXING MATCH WITH YOUR TENT
MATE.
Doug says: Hey Rob, if I told you I also bought an "add on" sales item,
namely the overhead loft for extra gear storage, would you still respect
me in the morning?

9.  Pay close attention to the clip mechanisms. Some snap together
easily, but are a pain to unclip. AND THEY BREAK EASILY. BUY EXTRAS OF
THE SAME SIZE AND KEEP THEM IN YOUR REPAIR KIT.
Doug says: Or just go back to a tarp. I'm seriously thinking about that
option after all this tent design posting.

10.Always stake-out the lee side of your tent if erecting it in the wind
or put some gear in first. ALL TRUE AND NON CONSTRUCTION SPECIFIC.
Doug says: Yeah. I was thinking of the number of freestanding tents that
blow away, verily, I say airborne in some cases. Though, now the FS tent
in this situation can tumble dry  :-)


I also prefer a tent that opens along its longer length, as opposed to
the smaller end (applies to a rectangular length). This allows easier
entry and egress, especially if the vestibule area is clogged with wet
gear. SEE ABOVE COMMENT #6 AND TRY TO RECONCILE WITH THIS ONE, I CAN'T.
Doug says: Gear? Like your sleeping bag.

I've also had to move a tent in the middle of the night due to
torrential rains and flooding, and once to a tide miss-prediction.
THAT'S EASY TO DO IN BC.
Doug says: Dan Lewis, well known guide and instructor out of Tofino, has
some great stories relating to flooding.

Freestanding means freedom.FREE AT LAST! FREE AT LAST!
Doug says: No, that comes when you finish this post!

Also, pay attention to fly taughtness and design around the distal (?)
perimeter. Loose flys can drive you batty during the night in a bad
blow. I WORRY MORE ABOUT THE TREES I CAMPED UNDER THAN THE SOUND OF WIND
ON MY TENT FLY.
Doug says: Sorry, I'm a savvy camper, too, you know. I never camp under
trees that have boughs that can break or trees that are old/rotten (used
to be a faller). Well, savvy notwithstanding macaroni and cheese on my
tent fly in bear country.

And don't be afraid to use a tarp above your tent in heavy rains or snow
if you have an extra one. And oh yes, speaking of, um, erecting, a tent
fly that extends all the way to close to the ground not only keeps the
sidewalls dry, but avoids embarrassment
during early morning sunrises due to backlighting (if you get my drift).
(PG-13 rating on this post Kirk). I WON'T GO THERE.
Doug says: Why? Privacy is a real issue, especially on mixed trips, or
couples who like to retire early to there tents, or rise early.
Translucence is something to still consider.

MORAL OF THE STORY: DON'T BUY DOUG'S OLD NFS TENTS.
Dos Centavos,
ROB G
Doug says: Obviously you really don't think much of my old NFS tent.
Neither do I. Is that what all this was about? Hey Rick, you started
this -- wanna buy a really cheap tent for your new adventures? I'll pay
the shipping. Gotta run, my wife is about to pull my modem plug again.

Doug Lloyd (house-bound, wishing maybe he _was_ tent bound -- in a FS
tent, of course)


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