Rick, I usually stay away from camping gear threads, but can't hold back on this one. PLEASE DON'T get a non-freestanding tent. I don't care what anyone else says, buying a tent that requires staking out is like stepping back into antiquity, as far as I'm concerned. I absolutely detested multiday excursions until the day I finally wised up and bought a free standing tent. What a revelation. So seize the day, man! Not sure what conditions your anticipating using your tent in, but over the years I've seen it all, especially in exposed locations, in terms of tent failures and inconveniences ranging from the sublime to the serious. Here's what I've come to appreciate or not, as the case may be -- top ten lists: Non-freestanding tent 1. Very difficult erecting in high winds. 2. Difficulty dealing with stake-out lines with wet, numb hands/fingers. 3. Frozen stake-out lines. 4. Tangled stake-out lines. 5. More prone to soak-out in heavy rain prior to full erection (of tent). 6. Footprint generally bigger therefore less placement options. 7. Line tensioners slipping in night wind -- clumped up tent=poor condensation dissipation. 8. More lines to trip over, and uneven terrain difficulties more acute. 9. Some designs require stake-out of main tent, and _then_ the fly -- better land early in the day! 10. Looks of derision and pity from fellow paddlers at camp. Freestanding tent 1. More options with placement and moving it after erecting the tent. 2. Higher wind ratings. 3. Fast set up. 4. Usually more compact for packing. 5. Easier to dry out in morning sun as one can easily present different faces and bottom to sun. 6. Easier to initially place gound sheet and then keep in place (mine clips right to the bottom of the tent). 7. Night star-gaze versions (lots of netting on top) are fun, and the fly is easily added later if clouds move in. 8. No main ridgepole, therefor better distribution of sideways wind sheer forces. 9. Quick tear down for fast dawn camp breaks (very important for open water paddling). 10.Thumbs up from paddling partners! Some general things to consider about freestanding tent: 1. Buy aluminum poles (of course) -- but take a spare section. 2. Overall joined pole lengths are best if each unit is the same overall length for faster setups under duress. 3. All poles are not created equally. Some all too easily have their male joints pushed back inside the pole after bonding agents let go, leaving the female furrel (sp?) end of the adjoining pole to easily break when the overall lengths are curved under pressure. Pay the bucks for a good tent. 4. Some offshore tents have really poor thread counts for the stitching. Get the best you can within your budget or better. Knock offs are not as good if you look a little closer, though don't pay full price for top name brands if avoidable. 5. Get as waterproof a floor as you can. Sealed seams are much preferred. 6. Cheaper tents and even certain expensive designs allow certain spots to make contact between tent walls and fly, which then drip on you and your gear. 7. Avoid tents that use a lot of velcro to align fly to main tent. Tents just don't stay taught enough to retain alignment. 8. Get a tent with enough headroom and overhead arm swing room for proper clothing changes, etc. 9. Pay close attention to the clip mechanisms. Some snap together easily, but are a pain to unclip. 10.Always stake-out the lee side of your tent if erecting it in the wind or put some gear in first. I also prefer a tent that opens along its longer length, as opposed to the smaller end (applies to a rectangular length). This allows easier entry and egress, especially if the vestibule area is clogged with wet gear. I've also had to move a tent in the middle of the night due to torrential rains and flooding, and once to a tide miss-prediction. Freestanding means freedom. Also, pay attention to fly taughtness and design around the distal perimeter. Loose flys can drive you batty during the night in a bad blow. And don't be afraid to use a tarp above your tent in heavy rains or snow if you have an extra one. And oh yes, speaking of, um, erecting, a tent fly that extends all the way to close to the ground not only keeps the sidewalls dry, but avoids embarrassment during early morning sunrises due to backlighting (if you get my drift). (PG-13 rating on this post Kirk). Doug Lloyd (from the wet coast) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Rick, > I usually stay away from camping gear threads, but can't hold back on > this one. ... > Non-freestanding tent > 1. Very difficult erecting in high winds. > 2. Difficulty dealing with stake-out lines with wet, numb > hands/fingers. > 3. Frozen stake-out lines. > 4. Tangled stake-out lines. > 5. More prone to soak-out in heavy rain prior to full erection (of > tent). > 6. Footprint generally bigger therefore less placement options. > 7. Line tensioners slipping in night wind -- clumped up tent=poor > condensation dissipation. > 8. More lines to trip over, and uneven terrain difficulties more > acute. > 9. Some designs require stake-out of main tent, and _then_ the fly -- > better land early in the day! > 10. Looks of derision and pity from fellow paddlers at camp. While I appreciate your sincerity Doug, it looks to me like your two lists are comparing good tent designs to poor ones and not free- vs. non-freestanding. I use my non-freestanding (NFS) tent without any lines (except in siuations like the Everglade chickees where no staking is possible), so your item #s 2, 3, 4, 7, and 8 don't apply at all. In fact they are more applicable to my older freestanding (FS) tent which does have a few lines extending from the tent. Comparing my particular FS tent to my NFS one, 8 of your points above apply more to the FS tent and only one is more applicable to the NFS. I have not noticed any signs of point #10 with either tent. Similarly, most of the items on your list of supposed FS advantages are more applicable to my NFS tent than they are to my FS. So I'd suggest to Rick that he definitely consider Doug's lists as characteristics to consider, but not to rule out an otherwise good design just because it isn't freestanding. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
EXCELLENT POST, DOUG *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"PLEASE DON'T get a non-freestanding tent." Lots of other good stuff snipped, but just to reinforce this point: every plan to camp on a rocky, windswept island? TFJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 02/10/2002 7:20:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, tfj4_at_attbi.com writes: << PLEASE DON'T get a non-freestanding tent." >> seconded by at least sandy kramer and doug lloyd..... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter said (with mostly snips): While I appreciate your sincerity Doug, it looks to me like your two lists are comparing good tent designs to poor ones and not free- vs. non-freestanding. ---------------- That is true Peter, and thank you for pointing this out. Funnily enough, after I hit send on my last post, I had an afterthought that I should have ended "All things being equal". Of course, things never are "all equal". Case in point: one of my paddlemates uses a Gortex tent. Instant pitching, no leaking, no condensation, no supplemental fly; and while the tent is not freestanding, it only has a couple of guidelines and can be moved rapidly to a different location (as he is prone to do to get away from, uh, certain snore-loud camping mates! Much of my last post and points were due to inductive reasoning and hatred for my old NFS tent (so somewhat subjective), though objective observation of other campers (and their particular NFS and FS tents) also helped confirm my strongly felt opinions. "Generally" (here we go again), I find a good FS tent superior in every way, but that has been_ my_ experience. You beg to differ, because that has not been your experience, and this is what makes Paddlewise such a useful place to log into, where we can have civilized discussions about how to escape from civilization (well, except ralph who paddles in the shadows of skyscrapers :-) ).. There must be a lot of different tent designs out there over the years. Ultimately, the thing is to get out there and enjoy wilderness while one's health is good and we still have diverse wilderness. As Scott wisely said, a pup tent will suffice (heck, a good tarp is all a true wilderness adventurer needs, though here on the west coast, we have had wolves pull untented paddlers out of their sleeping bags in the middle of the night (well, one big bad wolf who enjoyed being fed high-caloric camper's food -- or was that high-caloric campers?). I'll be keeping my tent however, and retaining the freestanding design characteristics that I've come to appreciate and luxuriate toward. On a technical note, some freestanding tents don't stand very free at all until fully staked out (which begs the question, "Are they really freestanding?". Once unstaked, they collapse readily with the slightest provocation. Definitely, not all tents, of whatever design, are created equal. In the end, price points, clearance sales, and things like availability might prove more important to the perspective buyer. Good gear isn't cheap anymore, but the cost of avoiding wilderness excursions because one doesn't have the latest and greatest gear might prove immeasurable. So grab that aluminum polled, canvas heavy, mildew ridden crustaceous contraption and get out and enjoy nature. In terms of "looks of derision" from fellow paddlers (point #10), proves again that my experience has been different from yours. Of course, with my old inferior (designed) NFS tent, it may have been mostly looks of concern, not contempt. Paddlers, after all, are a decent bunch of people...and apparently decent lunch to some animals. :-) Doug Lloyd (back on his feet and freestanding again) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 02/10/2002 6:33:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, dougl_at_islandnet.com writes: << (well, except ralph who paddles in the shadows of skyscrapers :-) ).. >> and has been VERY quiet lately... sandy k *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Loyd, who I usually agree with, but now is quite wet on this one, wrote: -- top ten lists: (My comments follow DL's statement) Non-freestanding tent 1. Very difficult erecting in high winds. HUH? NOT SPECIFIC TO CONSTRUCTION FORMAT. 2. Difficulty dealing with stake-out lines with wet, numb hands/fingers. FOR CANVAS WALL TENTS MAYBE, BUT NOT QUALITY NFS DESIGNS. I CAN JUST SEE DOUG IN A POWDERED WIG AND TRI CORNERED HAT ERECTING HIS REVOLUTIONARY WAR ERA NFS. 3. Frozen stake-out lines. OH BOY, THAT FROZEN PARACHUTE CORD IS A REAL DOOZY! 4. Tangled stake-out lines. YOU'D HAVE TO BE A REAL CLOD TO TANGLE UP 3 FEET OF PARACHUTE CORD. 5. More prone to soak-out in heavy rain prior to full erection (of tent). ANY ONE WITH CAMP SENSE SHOULD KNOW HOW TO PUT THE FLY OVER THE BODY TO PROTECT FROM RAIN. ANY BUT SINGLE WALL TENTS HAVE THIS PROBLEM. 6. Footprint generally bigger therefore less placement options. WRONG: A FOOT PRINT IS A FOOTPRINT, CONSTRUCTION TYPES OF EQUAL SQARE FOOT PRINT TAKE UP THE SAME SPACE. 7. Line tensioners slipping in night wind -- clumped up tent=poor condensation dissipation. DOUG, I'M SORRY YOU HAD A REAL PIECE OF TRASH FOR A NFS, BUT THEY ARE NOT ALL LIKE THIS. 8. More lines to trip over, and uneven terrain difficulties more acute. HUH? A TWISTED NIGHT OF SLEEP IS A TWISTED NIGHT OF SLEEP. DON'T BLAME NFS TENTS ON THIS. 9. Some designs require stake-out of main tent, and _then_ the fly -- better land early in the day! THIS IS ALMOST FUNNY. YOU ARE JOKING? RIGHT? 10. Looks of derision and pity from fellow paddlers at camp. ...AS YOU PULL OUT A QUALITY NFS TENT THAT GOES UP FASTER, IS LIGHTER, AND JUST AS USEFUL AS THERE FS TENTS. Freestanding tent 1. More options with placement and moving it after erecting the tent. WRONG. QUALITY NFS TENTS MOVE JUST AS EASILY. 2. Higher wind ratings. WRONG. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CONSTRUCTION FORMAT, BUT EVERYTHING TO DO WITH SEASON RATING GIVEN TO TENT. 3. Fast set up. IF YOU CAN BEAT A SINGLEWALL TENT, THEN I'D AGREE, BUT SINCE NOT, YOU'RE BACK THERE IN THE SAME TIME RATING AS A QUALITY NFS. 4. Usually more compact for packing. WRONG. SQARE FOOTAGE (THE AMOUNT OF MATERIAL ONE HAS TO CRAM INTO A DRYBAG)HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TENT CONSTRUCTION FORMAT. 5. Easier to dry out in morning sun as one can easily present different faces and bottom to sun. OH YES, THAT FREE STANDING GEOMETRY HAS A REAL EFFECT ON THE RATE OF DESSICATION! C'MON DOUG! 6. Easier to initially place gound sheet and then keep in place (mine clips right to the bottom of the tent). IT'S CALLED AN *ADD ON SALE*, ALL OUTDOOR RETAILER SALESPEOPLE ARE TRAINED TO LOAD YOU UP WITH OPTIONS AFTER YOU SELECT THE TENT. WE MUST HAVE HAD THE SAME GUY CAUSE HE SOLD ME THE SAME CLIP ON FLOOR FOR MY NFS TENT.ARE'NT WE SUCKERS, I COULD HAVE MADE MINE WITH TYVECK AND GROMMETS FOR 2 BUCKS. 7. Night star-gaze versions (lots of netting on top) are fun, and the fly is easily added later if clouds move in. STAR GAZING IS NOT THE EXCLUSIVE FIEFDOM OF THE WELL TO DO SET TRAVELING WITH FS TENTS. US LOW RENT NFS TYPES LIKE TO DO THAT TOO. IT'S REALLY THE CAREER, FAMILY, BILLS THAT PREVENTS STAR GAZING, NOT NFS TENTS. 8. No main ridgepole, therefor better distribution of sideways wind sheer forces. I DON'T HAVE ONE OF THESE EITHER. I GUESS THE MFR WANTED MY NFS TO HANDLE SIDE WINDSHEAR BETTER. 9. Quick tear down for fast dawn camp breaks (very important for open water paddling). BOY, THOSE NFS GUYS ARE REALLY SLOWIN US DOWN. LET'S DUMP THEM IN THE NEXT TIDAL RAPID AHEAD. 10.Thumbs up from paddling partners...FROM WATCHING TOO MANY HAPPY DAYS RERUNS. Some general things to consider about freestanding (OR NON FREESTANDING) tent: 1. Buy aluminum poles (of course) -- but take a spare section. 2. Overall joined pole lengths are best if each unit is the same overall length for faster setups under duress. 3. All poles are not created equally. Some all too easily have their male joints pushed back inside the pole after bonding agents let go, leaving the female furrel (sp?) end of the adjoining pole to easily break when the overall lengths are curved under pressure. Pay the bucks for a good tent. SO TRUE 4. Some offshore tents have really poor thread counts for the stitching. Get the best you can within your budget or better. Knock offs are not as good if you look a little closer, though don't pay full price for top name brands if avoidable. 5. Get as waterproof a floor as you can. Sealed seams are much preferred. 6. Cheaper tents and even certain expensive designs allow certain spots to make contact between tent walls and fly, which then drip on you and your gear. 7. Avoid tents that use a lot of velcro to align fly to main tent. Tents just don't stay taught enough to retain alignment. DOUG'S ANTI VELCRO NOW, I SEE! 8. Get a tent with enough headroom and overhead arm swing room for proper clothing changes, etc. OR EXPECT A BOXING MATCH WITH YOUR TENT MATE. 9. Pay close attention to the clip mechanisms. Some snap together easily, but are a pain to unclip. AND THEY BREAK EASILY. BUY EXTRAS OF THE SAME SIZE AND KEEP THEM IN YOUR REPAIR KIT. 10.Always stake-out the lee side of your tent if erecting it in the wind or put some gear in first. ALL TRUE AND NON CONSTRUCTION SPECIFIC. I also prefer a tent that opens along its longer length, as opposed to the smaller end (applies to a rectangular length). This allows easier entry and egress, especially if the vestibule area is clogged with wet gear. SEE ABOVE COMMENT #6 AND TRY TO RECONCILE WITH THIS ONE, I CAN'T. I've also had to move a tent in the middle of the night due to torrential rains and flooding, and once to a tide miss-prediction. THAT'S EASY TO DO IN BC. Freestanding means freedom.FREE AT LAST! FREE AT LAST! Also, pay attention to fly taughtness and design around the distal (?) perimeter. Loose flys can drive you batty during the night in a bad blow. I WORRY MORE ABOUT THE TREES I CAMPED UNDER THAN THE SOUND OF WIND ON MY TENT FLY.And don't be afraid to use a tarp above your tent in heavy rains or snow if you have an extra one. And oh yes, speaking of, um, erecting, a tent fly that extends all the way to close to the ground not only keeps the sidewalls dry, but avoids embarrassment during early morning sunrises due to backlighting (if you get my drift). (PG-13 rating on this post Kirk). I WON'T GO THERE. MORAL OF THE STORY: DON'T BUY DOUG'S OLD NFS TENTS. Dos Centavos, ROB G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: tfj [SMTP:tfj4_at_attbi.com] Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:46 AM To: Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] TENT HUNT - "PLEASE" "PLEASE DON'T get a non-freestanding tent." Lots of other good stuff snipped, but just to reinforce this point: every plan to camp on a rocky, windswept island? TFJ *************************************************************************** I have -- and survived a gusty thunderstorm in a free-standing four-person Eureka Alpine Meadows tent that was held down by rocks piled on squares of netting clipped to the stake loops. Tip for camping on sand: Tie guy lines to "dead men" -- rocks or pieces of driftwood buried horizontally six inches or more deep. Chuck Holst ^_at_^_at_ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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