> For a dry suit, I never found the breathable fabric to > help much either. I wind up wet anyway, only I am > more likely to feel wet and cold with the breathable > fabric. With the cheaper non-breathable fabric I > usually feel wet only when I take it off at the end of > the day. So even if I am a little drier (not dry) > with Goretex, what good is that if I feel wetter and > colder. I suspect that this cooling effect might be less a consequence of wind penetration than of Goretex's breathability. If you think about it, any moisture lost through the Goretex membrane inevitably carries away some heat with it. If it did not, the moisture would be shed as frost or it would condense to liquid water, in which case it would not pass through the membrane in the first place! The reason moisture barrier liners keep you warmer when winter camping (inside a sleeping bag, for instance) is they retain the heat along with the moisture. A coated drysuit can be thought of as a very effective moisture barrier liner. So I suspect that heat loss is an inevitable consequence of breathability. Thinking positively, it could be interpreted as evidence the fabric is working as it should. It's up to the user, however, to decide whether the trade-off is worth it. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Holst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> > I suspect that this cooling effect might be less a consequence of wind > penetration than of Goretex's breathability. If you think about it, any > moisture lost through the Goretex membrane inevitably carries away some > heat with it. If it did not, the moisture would be shed as frost or it > would condense to liquid water, in which case it would not pass through the > membrane in the first place! The reason moisture barrier liners keep you > warmer when winter camping (inside a sleeping bag, for instance) is they > retain the heat along with the moisture. A coated drysuit can be thought of > as a very effective moisture barrier liner. > > So I suspect that heat loss is an inevitable consequence of breathability. > Thinking positively, it could be interpreted as evidence the fabric is > working as it should. It's up to the user, however, to decide whether the > trade-off is worth it. Overall, I suspect the tradeoffs are worth it and a GoreTex suit may be the best way to go for overall comfort. But buyers need to know the tradeoffs: 1)for air temperature comfort, you need to layer more insulation underneath than with a non-breathing coated suit (no big deal really); 2) While in your boat under PFD, sprayskirt and with your lower half inside your non breating boat, only some of your body will be getting the benefit of the breathability of Goretex (your arms and some of you chest and back that protrudes from under the PFD). I am just making a case for coated as not all that bad for the following reasons: Less expensive (you could buy a Lightning paddle or other graphite paddle with the difference in price between coated and Goretex); less maintenance (wash a coated dry suit only when it starts to offensively stink or sweat salt gets so encrusted inside that the suit stands up by itself like the biblical pillar of salt); no worry about whether the outer DWR (durable water repellent) is shedding enough water to allow the Goretex to breathe (coated suits don't breathe, period) or needs to be revitalized through very careful ironing or spraying on an aftermarket product that you hope restores DWR without gumming up the Goretex membrane's pores. The downside of a coated dry suit is that you will need to shed your fleece insulation at the end of the day because it will be wet feeling. But even here, there are so many amazing wicking products available these days that weren't around even a few years ago that you might not even have to do that as what you have next to the skin will be truly dry when you emerge from your dry suit or within a few minutes. On an analogous topic, latex gaskets. A few years ago we had some heated discussions on neck rings to relieve pressures from the neck gasket and allow some air circulation when on land or in calm conditions. The explanation given was that even with a neck ring on and rolling only a small of water enters the suit. If that is the case, and I trust those who have done this as being truthful, then why have latex gaskets in the first place. I mentioned earlier that some paddling jackets have replaced neoprene gaskets at the neck and wrists with sealcoat or Daarlex material (that seals as tight if not tighter than neoprene and absorbs no water like neoprene does). Such material at all the gasket positions of a dry suit (neck, wrists, ankles) could allow you to walk around with all that open on land to vent if air temperatures are high. When you are out on the water and you seal all those up, water penetration would be at worse a trickle (again I am using the statements about even using neck rings let little water in through an open latex neck gasket). Perhaps some manufacturer should explore having such new material gaskets. Would be cheaper to make than latex and would not have to be replaced every few years like latex and not susceptible to tearing. Also no need to suffer when putting on your dry suit. ralph diaz-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Chuck Holst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> > The reason moisture barrier liners keep you > warmer when winter camping (inside a sleeping bag, for instance) is they > retain the heat along with the moisture. This is one advantage, but the real justification for vapour barrier linings is to keep the insulation layer dry. If you look at those in really cold conditions without vapour barriers, the sleeping bag eventually ices up, making it both impossible to pack and a non-insulator. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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