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From: Doug Lloyd <dougl_at_islandnet.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Bow Tie-Downs Revisited
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 00:09:12 -0700
Chuck said:
<snip>
Shortly after merging onto I-35W, I saw a sudden slowdown of traffic
ahead of me, and stepped on the brakes. I had just removed my foot from
the brake pedal when our car was struck from behind by a Jeep Cherokee
driven by a young woman.
<snip>

Thanks for the report Chuck, and the reminder of the positive influence
PW has had on you. I had a close call the other day too -- but I was the
one trying to rear-end someone.  It was a straight road where the speed
limit is oft ignored. A car in front stopped to wait for the truck in
front of them to turn left across the traffic. I wasn't well and wasn't
paying attention on the straight-a-way. By the time I looked up, it was
too late. I hit the brakes instinctively and went into a four-wheel
drift. Within a second I had determined there was no way to avoid a
terrible collision with the brakes engaged. I also hadn't used the bow
and stern lines. I've only been driving _short distances_ because of my
health. All I could think about was the poor lady getting severe
whiplash, and my 100 lb Nordkapp flying through the air still attached
to the roof rack, which would still be attached to the factory rack --
which very possibly could have easily ripped out of the roof's
sheetmetal. I credit quick reaction time to years of rock-garden
paddling: I was able to see out of the corner of my eye enough room
between her right bumper and a street no-parking sign to my right, with
just enough room for my van minus the right rear-view mirror maybe. As
it turned out, I avoided the collision and even just missed the mirror
and slipped by within inches after releasing the brakes and restoring
steerage. I felt terrible and elated at the same time. I will _not_ be
_not_ using bow and stern lines again, even on short trips under highway
speeds.

Glad you are okay. Was blowing up to 50-knots _and_ sunny on Juan De
Fuca today, but could only look. Hopefully I will be better in a week or
two. Miss 'dem waves.

Doug

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From: Chuck Holst <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Bow Tie-Downs Revisited
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:34:51 -0500
I have no experience with this, but I think there could be some damage to 
the kayaks if the lines were over-tightened. If they were nylon, they might 
stretch far enough to prevent damage, but nylon ropes also have some 
disadvantages when used as tie-downs. I always use polyester ropes from a 
sailing shop because it doesn't stretch when it gets wet or suffer as much 
from the rays of the sun.

Chuck Holst


-----Original Message-----
From:	Leonhardt, William J [SMTP:wjleonhardt_at_bnl.gov]

I'm glad to hear no one was injured.  I hope this doesn't keep you off the
water too long.

I use both bow and stern lines when car-topping and will continue to do so, 
however I was wondering something about your accident and would like you to 
comment.  On my vehicle, and probably most others, the sterns of my boats
extend back further than the rear of the vehicle.  In my case, the stern
lines run from the stainless steel hoops where the rear carry toggles
attach, down to eyes  I have mounted just below the rear bumper.  If I had
an accident like yours, I was wondering if the car behind would first have
contacted my stern lines, shortening them with its forward motion, so that
it would try to bend the kayaks around the rear saddles.

Can you picture what I'm saying?  What do you think would happen?

Bill Leonhardt


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From: Chuck Holst <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Bow Tie-Downs Revisited
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:21:11 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From:	John Blackburn [SMTP:digipixs_at_erols.com]

> I hope the Romanys came through without damage.

Thanks. The Romanys were above the point of impact, and because they stayed 
on the car, came through without damage.

> Given the description of the damage to his wagon, it seems that Chuck is, 
or
> maybe soon will be, in the market for a new kayak "carrier".  Maybe 
something
> that'll hold its own with a Cherokee?  ;-)

This actually was a serendipitous accident. I'd been thinking about 
replacing the old Accord wagon with a newer one. Accord wagons are hard to 
come by, but as it happened, the owner of a 1996 Accord wagon with 64,500 
miles on it (mine had 143,000) posted it for sale on a local kiosk the day 
before the accident. Linda and I looked at the posted Accord last night, 
and this morning I had it checked over by our local garage. It needs about 
$450 worth of normal maintenance (brakes, plugs, etc.), so the owner 
reduced the price $500. We'll probably close the deal when he gets back 
into town Friday. If the accident had happened a day or two later, I might 
have missed this good deal.

I don't like vehicles that require stepladders to get the kayaks on and off 
the roof.

It's official now: The damage done to the old car is more than the vehicle 
is worth, so it'll be hauled off to a junkyard. Now I won't have to replace 
the burned-out brake light or investigate the new oil leak.... It's an ill 
wind that blows nobody good. :-)

> <snip> From Chucks description of the accident it seems that the
> tower/car connection is the weak link, since three of the four towers 
separated
> from the car.  The only restraint I have on forward movement is connected 
to
> the cross bar.  This does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.  My 
existing
> bow and stern lines would limit the distance the kayak could move 
forward, but
> I'm thinking in terms of adding something like a line running from the 
bow to
> the rear fender.  Am I being too paranoid?

Bow and stern lines limit how far kayaks can move, and I think this is, if 
not ideal, still a very valuable service. Since I have never had the boats 
and rack part in an accident, I think lines running to the rack bars would 
work almost as well as one running to each end of each kayak. Remember, 
because I was rear-ended, an extra line running only to the rear fender or 
bumper would not have helped at all.

In an impact like this one, which I estimate was 25-40 mph relative, I 
doubt that any rack that wasn't bolted to the roof would have remained in 
place, and maybe not even then. Bolts can tear out of sheet metal, creating 
even worse damage. The clamp-on towers damaged little but the trim above 
the doors when they tore loose.

This was my second accident in which I was carrying a boat on the vehicle. 
The other time, I was carrying a We-no-nah canoe tied to a Yakima rack that 
had type A towers clamped to external gutters. A garbage truck backed into 
my Honda Civic at a stop light, knocking the canoe and rack off the car. By 
the time it stopped, the canoe was lying alongside the car, still tied to 
the rack and the front and rear of the car, and the steel roof gutters on 
the car were gouged where the rear towers had rocked backwards. Only one 
Yakima tower was broken that time.

Yakima makes some very sturdy products.

Just one more bit of good news: I've been out of work since January, and I 
was told today by my agent that I'm the top choice on a possible 
contracting job. So all things considered, I'm pretty cheerful today.

Chuck Holst

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From: Chuck Holst <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Bow Tie-Downs Revisited
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:46:21 -0500
Thanks, Doug. Glad your near-accident came out okay.

BTW, I also put a message about the accident on the Inland Sea Kayakers 
message board, and today had a reply from Linda's cousin in Scotland. 
Neither of us knew he read it or had any interest in sea kayaking. Maybe he 
was just checking up on his relatives. ;-)

Chuck Holst


-----Original Message-----
From:	Doug Lloyd [SMTP:dougl_at_islandnet.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:09 AM
To:	Chuck Holst; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net
Subject:	[Paddlewise] Bow Tie-Downs Revisited

Chuck said:
<snip>
Shortly after merging onto I-35W, I saw a sudden slowdown of traffic
ahead of me, and stepped on the brakes. I had just removed my foot from
the brake pedal when our car was struck from behind by a Jeep Cherokee
driven by a young woman.
<snip>

Thanks for the report Chuck, and the reminder of the positive influence
PW has had on you. I had a close call the other day too -- but I was the
one trying to rear-end someone.  It was a straight road where the speed
limit is oft ignored. A car in front stopped to wait for the truck in
front of them to turn left across the traffic. I wasn't well and wasn't
paying attention on the straight-a-way. By the time I looked up, it was
too late. I hit the brakes instinctively and went into a four-wheel
drift. Within a second I had determined there was no way to avoid a
terrible collision with the brakes engaged. I also hadn't used the bow
and stern lines. I've only been driving _short distances_ because of my
health. All I could think about was the poor lady getting severe
whiplash, and my 100 lb Nordkapp flying through the air still attached
to the roof rack, which would still be attached to the factory rack --
which very possibly could have easily ripped out of the roof's
sheetmetal. I credit quick reaction time to years of rock-garden
paddling: I was able to see out of the corner of my eye enough room
between her right bumper and a street no-parking sign to my right, with
just enough room for my van minus the right rear-view mirror maybe. As
it turned out, I avoided the collision and even just missed the mirror
and slipped by within inches after releasing the brakes and restoring
steerage. I felt terrible and elated at the same time. I will _not_ be
_not_ using bow and stern lines again, even on short trips under highway
speeds.

Glad you are okay. Was blowing up to 50-knots _and_ sunny on Juan De
Fuca today, but could only look. Hopefully I will be better in a week or
two. Miss 'dem waves.

Doug

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
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