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From: Kathea and Ken <kayakfit_at_fidalgo.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling course and thoughts
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 21:34:50 -0700
I'm intrigued:  What is a butterfly roll?





I certainly agree that wood paddles are superior for rolling.  I'd like to see
our club get a few for pool practices because they are such great teaching
aids.  I also think they might be a good safety idea for anyone wanting to
solidify a marginal roll in real life conditions.  I feel like a fiberglass
paddle works well enough for me, but the wood do work better.





Ken Rasmussen





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From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling course and thoughts
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:47:48 -0400
At 09:34 PM 4/28/02 -0700, Kathea and Ken wrote:
>I'm intrigued:  What is a butterfly roll?

Assuming you're going to roll up on the right side:

Grab the paddle in the middle of the loom.  Cross your arms such that the 
left hand is holding the cockpit rim on the right and the right arm is over 
the left with the paddle along the left side and parallel to the 
boat.  Lean forward slightly and capsize to the left.  Once upside down, 
extend the paddle straight away from the boat with your right hand, holding 
the loom loosely, as if you're opening up a "wing".  Then open up the other 
"wing" (extend your left hand) as you lay back and rotate the boat with 
your hips.  You'll end up lying on the back deck.  If it's done right it 
will feel completely effortless.  If you don't come up you've usually done 
one of two things wrong.  If you hold the paddle too firmly or try to pull 
down on the paddle one end will tend to dive.  If you just extend the 
paddle out and hold it very loosely it works much better.  The other thing 
that keeps you from coming up is failing to lay back enough. I don't even 
think about a hip snap as much as just laying back as I open up my left arm.


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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling course and thoughts
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:15:26 -0400
From: "Kathea and Ken" <kayakfit_at_fidalgo.net>

> I'm intrigued:  What is a butterfly roll?

John's description is good.  Another is by Brian Nystrom and 
I copied it on my rolling web page:

http://members.rogers.com/michaeldaly2/kayakRollingXref.htm

Mike

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From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling course and thoughts
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:45:51 -0400
At 12:15 PM 4/29/02 -0400, Michael Daly wrote:
>From: "Kathea and Ken" <kayakfit_at_fidalgo.net>
>
> > I'm intrigued:  What is a butterfly roll?
>
>John's description is good.  Another is by Brian Nystrom and
>I copied it on my rolling web page:
>
>http://members.rogers.com/michaeldaly2/kayakRollingXref.htm

That's a great page.  I'm going to have to print it out and go down the 
list, trying each of the rolls to see how many I can do.

BTW, did you try the "paddle flip roll" in Ray's class?  He did it a few 
times and Gabriel and I paddled with him last summer.  I couldn't remember 
the set up position (it's not real obvious) but once I did it was fairly 
easy to do and looks really cool when seen from above.

I have one quibble about the Butterfly/back hand roll description in your 
table though.  The two "types" you have available are "brace" and "sweep" 
and the butterfly roll doesn't really fit into either.  It's much easier to 
do if you try *not* to brace with the paddle, but just hold onto it loosely.



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From: Gordin Warner <hmgwarner_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling course and thoughts
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:38:53 -0700
At 09:34 PM 02/04/28 -0700, Kathea and Ken wrote:
>I'm intrigued:  What is a butterfly roll?
>
>I certainly agree that wood paddles are superior for rolling.
When you say wooden paddles do you mean wooden European style paddles or 
Greenland style paddles?  My limited (very limited experience) has been 
that a GP works similar to an airplane wing in that it creates lift thus 
aiding in the roll.   I've also thought that wooden EP's are easier to roll 
with.  My rolling skills are not very advanced and I'd be interested in 
knowing if more experienced paddlers have any opinions on this.

Gordin Warner
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling course and thoughts
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:56:39 -0400
From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu>

> >http://members.rogers.com/michaeldaly2/kayakRollingXref.htm
> 
> That's a great page.  I'm going to have to print it out and go down the 
> list, trying each of the rolls to see how many I can do.

You're joining an number of other folks doing the same (including me).  I've
managed over twenty so far, obviously to varying degrees of success.  There
are a few more that need a _lot_ of work.

> BTW, did you try the "paddle flip roll" in Ray's class?  He did it a few 
> times and Gabriel and I paddled with him last summer.  

He had us doing it in the rolling class, then in the next day's traditional
paddling class we did it with the capsize to the paddle side, resulting in
a _really_ slow capsize.  It's a roll that is easy and fun.  The other I 
liked was the one where you lightly hold the paddle on the gunwale and 
capsize away from the paddle, causing it to roll up onto the upturned hull.
You then reach around with one hand and, bracing off the inverted hull, roll
up.  I can't remember then name of that roll and called it "Under The Hull 
Roll??" for now.  Anyone?

> I have one quibble about the Butterfly/back hand roll description in your 
> table though.  The two "types" you have available are "brace" and "sweep" 
> and the butterfly roll doesn't really fit into either.  It's much easier to 
> do if you try *not* to brace with the paddle, but just hold onto it loosely.

It's obviously not a sweep, so it becomes a brace almost by default.  It is
true that the least force on the paddle the better, but any action at all
is a bracing-type maneouver, hence the classification.

BTW, I still am looking for rolls not on the list.

Mike


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From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling course and thoughts
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:53:07 -0400
Michael Daly wrote:
> 
> The other [roll] I
> liked was the one where you lightly hold the paddle on the gunwale and
> capsize away from the paddle, causing it to roll up onto the upturned hull.
> You then reach around with one hand and, bracing off the inverted hull, roll
> up.  I can't remember then name of that roll and called it "Under The Hull
> Roll??" for now.  Anyone?

When I was doing it I called it the
"Where-did-the-blasted-paddle-go-maybe-if-I-thrash-around-enough-i'll-find-it-if-not-Regan-will-probably-bow-rescue-me-again
Roll" That may not be the official name.

Regan did say that when I capsized the paddle would slide off my
overturned stern with amazing speed.

-- 
Steve Cramer
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From: Gabriel L Romeu <romeug_at_erols.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling course and thoughts
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:32:40 -0400
This is the roll where I get the most us of my storm paddle...

"storm paddle option roll"?

Steve Cramer wrote:
> 
> Michael Daly wrote:
> >
> > The other [roll] I
> > liked was the one where you lightly hold the paddle on the gunwale and
> > capsize away from the paddle, causing it to roll up onto the upturned hull.
> > You then reach around with one hand and, bracing off the inverted hull, roll
> > up.  I can't remember then name of that roll and called it "Under The Hull
> > Roll??" for now.  Anyone?
> 
> When I was doing it I called it the
> "Where-did-the-blasted-paddle-go-maybe-if-I-thrash-around-enough-i'll-find-it-if-not-Regan-will-probably-bow-rescue-me-again
> Roll" That may not be the official name.
> 
> Regan did say that when I capsized the paddle would slide off my
> overturned stern with amazing speed.
> 
> --
> Steve Cramer

-- 
ø gabriel l romeu ø
http://studiofurniture.com ø http://journalphoto.org ø
http://kayakoutfitting.org
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From: John Blackburn <digipixs_at_erols.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling course and thoughts
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:33:36 -0700
For a second year paddler, who rolled for the first time last weekend, these discussions frustrate me no end.  I sure wish that we
could include pictures, diagrams etc. on the list serve, so I could really follow just what you guys are saying.  I find myself
printing out the descriptions of the rolls and then lying on the floor on my back with my legs in the air doing all sorts of
gyrations.  My wife walked in and was ready to have me committed!  She nailed her roll last year, without the living room floor
simulations, and I have been trying to catch up ever since.

John Blackburn (who was able to do a sweep roll three times in a row, after a few tries and expert help from a member of our club,
then lost it, due in part to water filled sinuses, so I was rushing the sweep and not setting up correctly!)

Gabriel L Romeu wrote:

> This is the roll where I get the most us of my storm paddle...
>
> "storm paddle option roll"?
>
> Steve Cramer wrote:
> >
> > Michael Daly wrote:
> > >
> > > The other [roll] I
> > > liked was the one where you lightly hold the paddle on the gunwale and
> > > capsize away from the paddle, causing it to roll up onto the upturned hull.
> > > You then reach around with one hand and, bracing off the inverted hull, roll
> > > up.  I can't remember then name of that roll and called it "Under The Hull
> > > Roll??" for now.  Anyone?
> >
> > When I was doing it I called it the
> > "Where-did-the-blasted-paddle-go-maybe-if-I-thrash-around-enough-i'll-find-it-if-not-Regan-will-probably-bow-rescue-me-again
> > Roll" That may not be the official name.
> >
> > Regan did say that when I capsized the paddle would slide off my
> > overturned stern with amazing speed.
> >
> > --
> > Steve Cramer

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