Re: [Paddlewise] VCP Lid's, Sp*ns*ns, Commercialism, Etc.

At 08:11 PM 5/14/02 -0700, Matt Broze wrote:
>It is my understanding that Paddlewise was founded to get away from the
>commercialism (Timmy's Sp*ns*ns) that was clogging up Wave-length's bulletin
>board. I vote we try to keep Paddlewise non-commercial. Since I never saw
>John's first post, I suspect John contacted Steve back channel to suggest he
>back off a bit and respond only to the person requesting the product (as I
>had considered doing myself). It looks like Steve inadvertently responded to
>the whole list instead of just responding back to John (as I have
>inadvertently done before--being on the digest you just can't hit "reply").

It seems that several people didn't see my first post so I should 
clarify/summarize my involvement in the thread.

I saw what I felt was an inappropriate use of the list when Steve responded 
on the list to a request regarding VCP hatch covers.  I responded to the 
list (perhaps I should have done that backchannel) expressing my 
concern.  I had to go back and look at my "outbox" to confirm that both 
Steve and Paddlewise were on the distribution list.  I wouldn't have 
responded at all, had this been an isolated case, but Steve had posted a 
similar response regarding a sprayskirt for a particular kayak.  In both 
cases, I felt that it would have been more appropriate to respond 
backchannel so I responded.  Steve followed up, on the list as well, and 
based on his response I felt that my initial complaint was justified.

>If we open Paddlewise up to commercial interests, a whole lot more of us in
>kayaking businesses are going to join with the main purpose of advertising
>their gear or services to us (a mass audience).

That's the gist of my complaint.  There are not too many places on the 
Internet that are commercial free anymore and private mailing lists seem to 
one of the few remaining places where at least violations of policy are 
someone enforceable.  I will admit that I am a bit sensitive about 
commercial advertising as I am an old school usenet user and remember the 
days when even including a business phone number in a signature file on a 
usenet posting was considered taboo.

>I think it is better to let
>any commercial interests (or others-shills or not) respond directly to the
>person requesting information about a product they sell directly rather than
>to everyone on the list.


Agreed.


>Commercial interests have to walk a fine line here since anything we say is
>going to come from our point of view and that is probably the same point of
>view as our business or design philosophy.

Again, I agree.  If anything, I believe that those with a commercial 
interest here should bend over backwards to avoid crossing that line rather 
than seeing how far they can go over the line before someone calls them on it.


>I have no problem with anyone,
>including commercial interests, contacting someone back channel that has
>asked for help that a commercial interest can provide. Whether that
>suggestion is from the owner of the business or just from someone offering
>advice on a business to contact that the person who asked for help might
>find valuable would not matter to me.

Neither would I.  As I wrote earlier, though, the difference between 
someone offering information about products or services at a business, and 
the business itself promoting itself, is that only the business owner 
retains any profits if any of us choose to use that business.

>Is there any way to poll the membership concerning their desires on where to
>draw the line with regard to commercial interests?

There are a few sites out there that offer free web polling services (e.g 
ballotbox.com).  A polling form could be added to the paddlewise.net site 
easily enough.
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