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From: Paul Raymond <kayaker37_at_hotmail.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:18:41 -0400
I had taken a basic kayaking class a few weeks ago, and managed to get in 
five somewhat sloppy C to C rolls. I mentioned to someone outside the class 
that it was just as much fun hanging upside down in the kayak and just 
looking around the pool, before trying to come back upright (actually I 
spent more time hanging upside down than coming back upright). He mentioned 
that he saw someone once that would use a mask, and had some sort of snorkel 
rigged to the side of the kayak, and would paddle out and invert at an 
interesting spot.

I don't know if this was to scout out an interesting spot to snorkel, if he 
would regularly snorkel while still in the kayak, or if the person telling 
me this was pulling my leg.

Which is it, has anyone heard of such a thing?

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From: <Rcgibbert_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:42:10 EDT
In a message dated 5/15/2002 2:21:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
kayaker37_at_hotmail.com writes:


> He mentioned 
> that he saw someone once that would use a mask, and had some sort of 
> snorkel 
> rigged to the side of the kayak, and would paddle out and invert at an 
> interesting spot.
> 
> I don't know if this was to scout out an interesting spot to snorkel, if he 
> 
> would regularly snorkel while still in the kayak, or if the person telling 
> me this was pulling my leg.
> 
> Which is it, has anyone heard of such a thing?
> 
I used such a device to help my wife improve her rolling. We used a Radical 
Gear snorkel breathing tube(www.radicalgear.com). It is a foam block for 
under the thighs, a rubber tube and a snorkel mouthpiece. 

The foam block fits under your thighs and the tube runs under your spraydeck 
with the mouthpiece coming out right where you need it. They did work well 
for helping adjust the roll student to adjusting to proper body and paddle 
mechanics under water as there was less of a threat of air deprivation.

2 caveats that I can think of: the air inside your hull won't last that long 
and you really should charge it after every couple of rolls by lifting the 
spraydeck; and the air quality is not particularly tasty as it has a lot of 
resin or poly taste to it from the actual boat. Additionally, dirt and debris 
in the cockpit and water accumulation may give you a bit of a muddy cocktail. 
(I guess that was three caveats).

After every roll session you might want to do a roll or two without goggles, 
nose plugs or snorkel as the real thing can be much different. Just my humble 
opinion.

Rob G


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From: Marian Gunkel <marian-list_at_gmx.de>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 00:21:32 +0200
Paul wrote:

> I don't know if this was to scout out an interesting spot to snorkel, if he 
> would regularly snorkel while still in the kayak, or if the person telling 
> me this was pulling my leg.

I don't know about that particular person but on a somewhat related
note:

At the Olympics 1936 in Berlin, the famous "Kenterstaffel" ("capsizing
squadron" might be the closest translation) performed at different
occasions. They did an on-water ballett in (folding) kayaks, paddling,
capsizing and rolling synchronically. 
Part of it was capsizing several boats simultanously, leaving the boats, keeping
underwater for a long time while breathing the air caught inside the
kayaks, then changing kayaks, entering them and rolling up again. 

Would this be a nice workout at your next rolling class? 

Cheers,
Marian

-- 
Marian Gunkel, Berlin, Germany
http://www.mariangunkel.de

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From: Paul Raymond <kayaker37_at_hotmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 18:20:33 -0400
Rob,

OK, helping to improve rolling techniques was the other reason I neglected 
to mention of why I was interested in such a thing.

>I used such a device to help my wife improve her rolling. We used a Radical 
>Gear snorkel breathing tube(www.radicalgear.com).

The first night I tried this was without nose plugs, or goggles. My contacts 
washed out after the second attempt, and from there out I couldn't figure 
out where "up" was. Probably a combination of never doing this before, and I 
just couldn't see anything.

Water rushing up my nose did not bother me, but as I have sinus problems 
anyways, my sinuses reminded me they didn't like it for a week after that.

As I am finishing up a Merganser, it should be interesting to try this in 
something other than a pool and a whitewater boat. I think it would be 
prudent to check out whats under the water, before trying any rolls in 
unfamiliar water, least I smack my head on a rock.

Thanks for the link.

Paul

>After every roll session you might want to do a roll or two without 
>goggles,
>nose plugs or snorkel as the real thing can be much different. Just my 
>humble
>opinion.
>
>Rob G


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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 19:31:14 -0400
From: "Paul Raymond" <kayaker37_at_hotmail.com>

> I don't know if this was to scout out an interesting spot to snorkel, if he 
> would regularly snorkel while still in the kayak, or if the person telling 
> me this was pulling my leg.
> 
> Which is it, has anyone heard of such a thing?

I practiced this in the pool this winter.  I use a mask, snorkel and 
a paddle float.  I drop to one side with the paddle float on my hand and
use it to provide the extra bouyancy to stay at the surface rather than
sink.  In this position, I can observe what's underwater and swim
with the kayak.  To right myself, I do a float-assisted hand roll.

I tried this to see if it would work.  I often find myself in an area
where there are wrecks in shallow water (there are lots of such wrecks
in the Great Lakes) but the surface reflections make it difficult to 
see.  This will allow me to observe the wrecks comfortably without
exiting the kayak.  The mask and snorkel fit in my knee tube and the
paddle float is always behind my seat in the cockpit, so it's not a 
big deal to lug around this stuff.

Mike

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From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 19:32:19 EDT
   I used to use a snorkel for rolling practice, and later for just 
sightseeing. Mine was simply a two foot length of garden hose with a diving 
regulator mouthpiece taped onto one end. The free end was simply stuck down 
my sprayskirt and inside the boat. I actually had the lame brained idea that 
I might be able to spearfish with such a contraption. However, every time I 
tried to gently capsize, it was till too noisy and scared whatever fish were 
in the area away.
   A couple of things you should know before you try this. First of all, you 
must be careful where you do this. On several occasions I resurfaced to find 
somebody stripping off their clothes as they were running to the water to 
come out and rescue me. The other problem is that if you do not have much 
experience breathing through a snorkel then you might have some difficulty 
with this device. I grew up with a mask and snorkel and never thought much 
about it until I suggested this technique to some other people who had no 
such experience. They were unable to get the hang of breathing around the 
water which invariably collects in the tube.

Good luck!

Scott
So.Cal.

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From: Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_earthlink.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:17:14 -0400
Paul Raymond wrote:
> 
> He mentioned
> that he saw someone once that would use a mask, and had some sort of snorkel
> rigged to the side of the kayak, and would paddle out and invert at an
> interesting spot.
> 
> I don't know if this was to scout out an interesting spot to snorkel, if he
> would regularly snorkel while still in the kayak, or if the person telling
> me this was pulling my leg.
> 
> Which is it, has anyone heard of such a thing?

There's a drawing in one of Derek Hutchinson's books of someone
with mask but sans snorkel upside down and nose-to-nose with a
manatee.

Which inspired me to rig up a snorkel mouthpiece ($3) with some
plastic tubing ($2.50) and take it along on our trip to Guanaja,
Honduras. I ran the tube down the skirt tunnel and could capsize
above the coral reefs for a good look around. You really want to
check the water depth before you do this.

If you don't have a roll, just maintain a hand on a friend's boat
so you can snap back up.

Steve
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:46:08 -0400
From: "Steve Cramer" <cramersec_at_earthlink.net>

> Which inspired me to rig up a snorkel mouthpiece ($3) with some
> plastic tubing ($2.50) and take it along on our trip to Guanaja,
> Honduras. I ran the tube down the skirt tunnel and could capsize
> above the coral reefs for a good look around. 

The only thing you have to watch for with these homemade rigs
(if you want to try this sort of thing) is to make sure the
volume of the tube isn't too high.  Otherwise, you'll be 
re-breathing the same air in the tube as it gradually increases
its carbon dioxide content.  One alternative is to exhale 
through your nose and not back into the hose, but that means
draining the air in the kayak if the tube is inside the skirt.
It would seem that the pressure drop might make it hard to breath 
eventually - not sure how long that would take, though.


Mike

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From: Matt Poese <matt_at_sabine.acs.psu.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:07:44 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 15 May 2002, Michael Daly wrote:

<snip>
> Otherwise, you'll be re-breathing the same air in the tube as it
> gradually increases its carbon dioxide content.  One alternative is to
> exhale through your nose and not back into the hose, but that means
> draining the air in the kayak if the tube is inside the skirt.


Or, just install a couple of one-way valves, sometimes called a "flapper"
valve, that isn't much more than a stiff rubber plate that deflects when
you draw a breath and allows fresh air into the mouthpiece but seats
against a stop when you exhale.  You might need a second one in the exhale
path to keep sea water from entering during the drawing of a breath.  I
think that high-end snorkels already have an arrangement kinda like this.


Cheers,

Matt 


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From: Bob Volin <bobvolin_at_optonline.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 00:02:43 -0400
Here's an idea...

Buy an ordinary snorkel with mouthpiece and ball valve on the other end.
Cut the snorkel in two (preserving the ball valve), and connect the two ends
with flexible hose.  Attach a foam collar to the ball valve end of the
snorkel, so it'll float.  Let it hang over the side.  When you capsize, the
snorkel's end will be out in the fresh air.

Mike's comment on rebreathing CO2 from the tube is apt.  His solution, to
breathe in from the tube and out through the nose, seems the easiest
solution.

Bob (Rube Goldberg I ain't)


> On Wed, 15 May 2002, Michael Daly wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Otherwise, you'll be re-breathing the same air in the tube as it
> > gradually increases its carbon dioxide content.  One alternative is to
> > exhale through your nose and not back into the hose, but that means
> > draining the air in the kayak if the tube is inside the skirt.
>


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From: Nick Reiter <reiter_at_fodderty.u-net.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] snorkeling while still in a kayak
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 10:25:13 +0100
At 00:02 16/05/2002 -0400, Bob Volin wrote:
>Here's an idea...
>
>Buy an ordinary snorkel with mouthpiece and ball valve on the other end.
>Cut the snorkel in two (preserving the ball valve), and connect the two ends
>with flexible hose.  Attach a foam collar to the ball valve end of the
>snorkel, so it'll float.  Let it hang over the side.  When you capsize, the
>snorkel's end will be out in the fresh air. <snip>

Neat idea.  I must give it a try.

But I remember as a kid being warned by a very experienced snorkeller / 
diver that ball-valves were dangerous - something about  how they could 
sometimes allow water into the snorkel then stick closed, preventing the 
snorkel from being cleared. The "correct" way was to use a plain snorkel 
and clear it with a vigorous blow then breathe back through it; hold your 
breath; dive; then blow-clear, breathe in; and so on. You do of course 
sometimes get a wee bit water in, but nothing to worry about (unless a wave 
chooses just the moment you breath in to fill your snorkel). That's how I 
have always snorkelled.


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