G'Day, Nick wrote:- >One of the deceiving things about paddles is when they are working >efficiently they feel harder to use than when they are not. A paddle >that moves freely through the water will feel a lot more comfortable >than one that grabs a large mass of water and doesn't give as easily. >Unfortunately, for a given amount of effort, the harder one to pull >will generally make the boat move farther and faster. There are good >physiological reasons for having the paddle "give" but it is hard to >quantify and the needs of each paddler will be different. Nick, Your comment improves my understanding. The problem is when one moves from the 'force' applied to a paddle to the 'feel' of a paddle. When I kayak the effort/force can feel high with one paddle while I'm trying to keep up with a fast group and lower when I change paddles to allow myself to keep up. This happens repeatedly and I have no idea what the forces on each paddle really are. But interestingly the paddle which feels easier to use is the one that lets me keep up. How useful are conclusions about the efficiency of a paddle, using analyses which ignore the paddler? Are modern computational methods adequate to assess paddler/paddle combinations, bearing in mind the huge number of variables? I believe theres still a place for subjective assessment and craftsmanship based on experience rather than quantitation? I suspect we have a few years to go before computer algorithms and understanding of bio-mechanics are up to the task, but would be interested to hear of progress in this area. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I believe that the best way to evaluate the performance of the >person/paddle combination is to use a speedometer Joe S -- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:56 AM +1000 7/26/02, PeterO wrote: > >How useful are conclusions about the efficiency of a paddle, using analyses >which ignore the paddler? Are modern computational methods adequate to >assess paddler/paddle combinations, bearing in mind the huge number of >variables? I believe theres still a place for subjective assessment and >craftsmanship based on experience rather than quantitation? I suspect we >have a few years to go before computer algorithms and understanding of >bio-mechanics are up to the task, but would be interested to hear of >progress in this area. The value of analyzing the paddle while ignoring the paddler is, the paddle is relatively easy to analyze. (not that it is easy, just easier than trying to generalize about people.) The reason to do it is to separate the performance of the paddle from the performance of the person. Often when people switch from on paddle to another many other factors also change. They may change their technique, the weight of the paddle may change. Changing from 230 cm plastic, wide bladed, mass produced paddle to a 215 cm, hand made, narrow bladed, wood paddle involves many changes that have little to do with how efficient the paddle is at propelling the boat forward. The length difference alone will require a significantly different stroke technique. A lighter paddle will just be easier to hold even if you don't try to paddle with it. The longer paddle will require more force use just do to the longer lever arm. And people just aesthetically like the look and feel of wood and showing some marks of being hand made can add to the enjoyment. This can go double if you made it yourself. People often attribute all the perceived difference to just the most obvious visible difference. So, if a narrow paddle feels easier than a wide bladed paddle it must be because the blade is narrow. This is the typical conclusion even if there are many other differences that will have a similar impact on the feel of the paddle, such as weight, length, or blade shape and thickness. By analyzing how the paddle actually works you can separate out those aspects of performance that make a difference in the feel of the paddle. And by knowing how a paddle really works you can do things in a logical manner to make the paddle even better. The alternative is to try random paddles until you happen on one you like. In the end the paddle that feels best to you is the one that is best, analysis is just a short cut around a lot of trial and error. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote >How useful are conclusions about the efficiency >of a paddle, using analyses which ignore the paddler? >Are modern computational methods adequate to assess >paddler/paddle combinations, bearing in mind the huge >number of variables? I believe theres still a place >for subjective assessment and craftsmanship based on >experience rather than quantitation? I suspect we have >a few years to go before computer algorithms and >understanding of bio-mechanics are up to the task, but >would be interested to hear of progress in this area. Dave Kruger wrote >Someone dinged scientific folks for asking for data >gathered under controlled conditions -- well, data >gathered where the (many) variables are minimized at >least allows the differences in the paddles to show up >against whatever noise there is in the system. Asking >for such measurements is good science. Knocking people >for gathering them is crummy polemics. >I hope Winters can get his tank back up, and can gather >some data. G'Day, I looked to find who seemed to be dinging the scientific folks and concluded it may have been me. If so I apologise to all those people who set up careful experiments in trying to understand paddles better. I know how hard and frustrating and rewarding it is to set up good experiments. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that subjective measurements should replace gathering data under controlled conditions, just that, suspect as they may be, theres still a place for subjective measurements. On thinking about Nick Schades response I would add 'for personal use only'. I still have concerns about the need for models of the paddler/paddle combination. I'll deal with them in a separate email, hopefully in a constructive rather than disputatious way. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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