I have been having an argument about just what makes a canoe verses what makes a kayak? I thought I knew, but now I'm confused. I know there are a lot of you on this list which know a bunch more about this stuff then I do, so I thought I would appeal to you for help. What's a kayak, and what's a canoe? Isn't a C-1 a racing canoe? And a K-1 a racing kayak? But then I have also heard C-1 being applied to a squirt boat. If you paddle it on your knees doesn't that make it a canoe? I checked some web sites and found one that called C-1's kayaks. So what's the real scoop here? Help! Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com> > I have been having an argument about just what makes a canoe verses what > makes a kayak? I thought I knew, but now I'm confused. I know there are a lot > of you on this list which know a bunch more about this stuff then I do, so I > thought I would appeal to you for help. What's a kayak, and what's a canoe? > Isn't a C-1 a racing canoe? And a K-1 a racing kayak? But then I have also > heard C-1 being applied to a squirt boat. If you paddle it on your knees > doesn't that make it a canoe? I checked some web sites and found one that > called C-1's kayaks. So what's the real scoop here? C-1 means canoe for a single paddler and K-1 means single kayak. You can make either a C-1 or a K-1 squirt boat - a squirt boat is simply one that has little reserve bouyancy and is barely afloat. Calling a C-1 a kayak makes as much sense as calling a kayak a canoe (umm, wait the Brits do that...). Anyone that calls a C-1 a kayak probably doesn't realize it's a decked canoe. People usually differenciate a decked from an open canoe by using the designation C for decked and OC for open canoe. Ultimately, if you kneel, it's a canoe, if you sit, it's a kayak. That makes baidarkas hard to classify, because traditionally, they can be paddled either kneeling or sitting. Someone will probably disagree with some or all of this. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
C-1 means a solo Canoe, and K-1 a single Kayak. (a C-2 is a tandem Canoe and a K-2 a double Kayak.) Unfortunately the difference between a canoe and kayak is difficult to explain or define, because there are some exceptions to the 'rules' or definitions. Technically, a kayak can be seen as a very special kind of a closed canoe that is meant to be paddled with a double bladed paddle. Exceptions to this definition are of course a 'sit on top' kayak, or an open inflatable kayak that is meant to paddled with a double bladed paddle. Also there are open canoes that are more or less meant to be paddled with a double bladed paddle. There also are partially decked canoes that are meant to be paddled with a double bladed paddle, but for me they are really kayaks. A big problem is that through some historic 'misunderstandings' in some European countries (U.K., Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavie) people tend to call a kayak a canoe and a canoe a canadian canoe -- shortened to canadian, to add further confusion. So much even, that now for lots of people here a canoe is a kayak, and some even think a canoe is a canadian kayak... This confusion is, however, understandable, if you consider that in those Europe countries, almost all canoe books, canoe magazines, canoe clubs, canoe lessons, are mostly about... kayaking and very little (if at all, and then mostly very badly) about canoeing!? Dirk Barends *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>>C-1 means canoe for a single paddler and K-1 means single kayak. You can make either a C-1 or a K-1 squirt boat - a squirt boat is simply one that has little reserve bouyancy and is barely afloat. More accurately, a C-1 is a decked single canoe, with the paddler in a kneeling position and using a single blade. If it's a traditional kind of canoe with no decks, then it's an OC-1 for Open Canoe. OC-2 is tandem.... There are K1s, and there are a few K2s.... Calling a C-1 a kayak makes as much sense as calling a kayak a canoe (umm, wait the Brits do that...). If you look at photos from the late 1800s, you'll find that many canoes had some decking, perhaps 2-3 feet from either end. They were often paddled with double blades, and in many cases the paddler sat on the bottom. It was this kind of canoe that was introduced into Europe (much earlier, probably, -- the Rob Roy was a decked canoe). And it was this kind of canoe that evolved in Europe into the kayak. The decking was extended from each end until only a hole was left for the paddler. These were developed probably after WWI and were primarily whitewater boats. The Sea Kayak as we know it, and from Inuit, Greenland, or Aleutian roots were primarily North American. Insofar as confusion between C1 & K1, there are a few ww kayaks that can be altered by the buyer into a C-1, so sometimes it can be difficult. Further converting this boat in either form to a squirt boat can also be done by 'dishing' the stern, and sometimes the bow as well. There is a set of instructions I saw which involved heating the stern with a heat gun then parking a motorcycle on it... JP *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OK, so a C-1 is a decked canoe, and a K-1 is a kayak. Does that mean a sea kayak is a K-1 also? And aren't the canoes used in racing refereed to as C-1 even though they do not have decks? Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com> > OK, so a C-1 is a decked canoe, and a K-1 is a kayak. Does that mean a sea > kayak is a K-1 also? Yes. > And aren't the canoes used in racing refereed to as C-1 > even though they do not have decks? These designations are a bit context sensitive. The use of C-1 or OC-1 is used when differentiation is required. In the case of Olympic flatwater canoe racing, there are no decked canoes, so C-1 is clear; OC-1 would be superfluous. In whitewater, both types of canoe are used, so the two terms are used. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] What's what? Canoe or kayak? > OK, so a C-1 is a decked canoe, and a K-1 is a kayak. Does that mean a sea > kayak is a K-1 also? And aren't the canoes used in racing refereed to as C-1 > even though they do not have decks? Assuming they are all singles, a sea kayak can be referred to as a K-1; an open canoe can be referred to as an OC-1; and a kayak can undergo a C-1 conversion that allows one to kneel while using the single blade paddle. Generally, canoeists use half the paddle and consider themselves twice the paddler. Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 9:07 PM -0400 8/7/02, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > I have been having an argument about just what makes a canoe verses what >makes a kayak? I thought I knew, but now I'm confused. I know there are a lot >of you on this list which know a bunch more about this stuff then I do, so I >thought I would appeal to you for help. What's a kayak, and what's a canoe? >Isn't a C-1 a racing canoe? And a K-1 a racing kayak? But then I have also >heard C-1 being applied to a squirt boat. If you paddle it on your knees >doesn't that make it a canoe? I checked some web sites and found one that >called C-1's kayaks. So what's the real scoop here? One definition I've heard is: "If the deck is taken off a canoe, no big deal. If the deck is taken off a kayak, it is in trouble." It is a good definition, unfortunately it doesn't quite work. There are kayaks that would without a deck and canoes that really need the deck. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:07 PM 8/7/2002 -0400, you wrote: > I have been having an argument about just what makes a canoe verses what >makes a kayak? I thought I knew, but now I'm confused. I know there are a lot >of you on this list which know a bunch more about this stuff then I do, so I >thought I would appeal to you for help. What's a kayak, and what's a canoe? >Isn't a C-1 a racing canoe? And a K-1 a racing kayak? But then I have also >heard C-1 being applied to a squirt boat. If you paddle it on your knees >doesn't that make it a canoe? I checked some web sites and found one that >called C-1's kayaks. So what's the real scoop here? C1 is canoe one person K1 is kayak one person C2 is canoe two people K2 is kayak 2 people OC1 is open canoe one person OC2 is open canoe two people. As to what exactly a canoe is versus a kayak I can't get there. At first blush a canoe is paddled with a single bladed paddle and a kayak with a double bladed paddle. Others may say a canoe is paddled kneeling and a kayak sitting - my canoes have "tractor" seats in them, kneeling isn't really an option. You then get to the exceptions, a double paddle canoe, like a Rob Roy, or a traditional kayak paddled with a single bladed kayak, and I'm not capable of coming up with a clear "legal" definition. I was planning on using this undefinable argument if I was ever harassed/ticketed for using my kayak with the canoeing permit on a local lake. Take the town to court and make them define what a canoe versus a kayak is - I know I can't do it.... Kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > > I have been having an argument about just what makes a canoe verses what > makes a kayak? Olympic WW slalom rules state that a canoe (C-1 or C-2) is paddled kneeling with a single blade paddle, and a kayak is paddled sitting with a double blade paddle. I think the sprint rules are the same, but I only officiate slalom. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OK so let's see; a C-1 is a racing canoe, unless a decked canoe is around, then the racing canoe becomes an OC-1, and the decked canoe is the C-1 as long as the paddler remains on his knees, otherwise it's a K-1. Gee, I don't know why I was so confused before :-) Thanks for the help. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:11 AM 8/9/2002 -0400, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > OK so let's see; a C-1 is a racing canoe, unless a decked canoe is > around, >then the racing canoe becomes an OC-1, and the decked canoe is the C-1 as >long as the paddler remains on his knees, otherwise it's a K-1. Gee, I don't >know why I was so confused before :-) Just to keep the confusion going it was pointed out to me, back channel, that I missed the outrigger canoes (1, 2, 4 or 6 man). OC-1, OC-2, OC-4, and OC-6 kirk paddler of: OC-1(marathon canoe), OC-1(outrigger), OC-2(canoes), OC-2(outrigger), OC-6 then the kayaks and surf skiis... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Generally, canoeists use half the paddle and consider themselves twice the paddler. Only if they can paddle a whole lot better than they can count? :-) 1 x 2 = 2 2 : 2 = 1, (NOT 1/2 ! ) Dirk Barends *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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