I wrote: > How can I be opposed to something that I can't avoid (at least if I want to > go somewhere in a kayak when the wind is blowing from the side)? Mike wrote: >>>>>>>I didn't say you are opposed to the wind but to wind ferries. You then go on to say how bad wind ferries are. I think you've demonstrated your position.>>>>>>>> I said no such thing, I suggest you read what I said more carefully. For example in the lines you quoted above I was writing about wind ferries (not wind) as one can not avoid wind ferries whenever paddling across the wind at whatever angle if one maintains a direct line true course. > You seem to > be implying that there is some advantage to be gained from this wind. >>>>>>There is no advantage, however, I can mitigate the effects. There's no point in fighting the wind if you don't have to. Let's note a few things: You can't avoid fighting the wind, you do have to. Your only choice is how you are going to do it. You just agreed that "there is no advantage". >>>>- - The faster you paddle, the greater the weathercocking moment. Agreed (if there is a unbalanced wind/water couple in your craft). >>>>- - The greater the angle to the wind, up to 90 degrees, the greater the weathercocking moment. I think weathercocking is even greater angling somewhat downwind (beyond 90 degrees) since the wind pressure is higher on whatever end of a long objects is angled into the wind. Often though, paddlers confuse the broaching that happens in waves with weathercocking in this angled downwind condition when waves are present. >>>>- - The greater the angle to the wind, up to 90 degrees, the greater the leeward drift of the kayak (ie, you get blown off course). 180 degrees would blow one down wind a lot faster because the hull in the water moves so much easier that way. From 0 to 90 degrees I'd agree with you but there are only small differences in drift rate between 45 to 90 degrees. >>>>>Since my objective is to stay on course and minimize the energy I use, I should point up into the wind and not push on at high speed (consistent with other objectives like arrival time).<<<<<< It is not clear from this if you are talking about the rate of energy use (what you feel) or the total energy use (which multiplies the rate by the time it is applied). Everything I wrote about in the last post was about a kayak that stayed on a true course directly to the destination (whatever the angle it was facing towards) across a side wind with no waves present. >>>>>>>Going off course increases the distance travelled and hence time and energy. The problem is to choose an angle that minimizes the energy I put out while not excessively compromising the time to my destination.<<<<< The range of angles I described never got one off course so the travel distance always remains the same. Energy output and speed made good are the variables not distance. >>>>>>>The conditions set by the original post were beam wind and no waves. I said that under those conditions, I often use a wind ferry (and I also said that other conditions, such as notable waves, make wind ferries less effective). I learned about wind ferrying from canoeing and canoes are more likely than kayaks (based on my experience) to be used under conditions of winds with little wave height since they are more likely to be used on smaller lakes where the fetch is insufficient to produce waves of significance.<<<<<< What did I say that contradicted this? I don't recall mentioning waves or there effects at all in my last post. >>>>>>If you paddle canoes. which are more sensitive to wind and no wave conditions due to their freeboard and lack of keel (at least in modern lake trippers), you can experiment with the angle relative to the wind. I've done that a lot and have found that the difference between the correct angle and a bad one is considerable. I also know that the effort to work against the wind drops considerably with the correct angle - you can maintain your position with a very slow paddle cadance. Upping the paddle cadance with a small change in angle gets you to your destination. Sure you lose speed relative to a straight line effort, but with much less total energy. <<<<<<< As I said, even going in a straight line with no wind at all, moving at less than 1 knot is a lot more efficient than paddling at three or four knots. I know very few paddlers who choose to travel at crawling speeds though. I either wouldn't kayak with them in the first place or I would tow them depending on the situation. >>>>>>>I have been in conditions where I've maintained the correct angle and drifted across a lake with almost no effort at all - a very low tempo and an easy stroke! In this particular case, the wind was initially slightly aft of my beam - I used the wind to blow me both downwind (a bit) and across to my destination. The key is to recognize when ferrying is to your advantage and when it is not.<<<<<< You are always ferrying when moving along a course whatever your kayak's angle to the wind. Depending on what your goals are, some angles have advantages over others along the spectrum of all angle possibilities. I never argued that the angle you chose might not have some advantage under some situation (such as an injury you described in your second post) at least if you were paddling on your own and not in a group you could be putting at risk with your slow speed or separation from the group. >>>>>>I've applied these principles to kayaking and found the same things, though it's a little trickier to get a lot of gain. This I attribute to the fact that the hull presents less of a profile to the wind. You need much higher winds in the kayak for the same effect and this doesn't happen as often without waves. Hence the opportunities are less frequent. <<<<<<<, What principles are you speaking of? You keep talking of gain when it is a loss. The canoe has a lot more losses due to a side wind than a kayak (due to more windage and a shallower draft) so you may notice less effects from the wind in a kayak because it doesn't get blown sideways as much in the first place. Therefore when at a shallower angle into the wind the canoe will move sideways faster. The kayak is at an advantage that should allow a much more direct line to your destination with less effort than with a canoe that must angle more into the wind to stay on the course line. > It is better to have a > kayak that is neutral to the wind (when moving forward at a reasonable > speed) rather than one that weathercocks or lee-cocks because all known > methods of compensation for an imbalanced wind/water couple have costs that > can be measured in terms of extra energy expended to keep them pointed in > the right direction. Which means buying another kayak, specifically one that I have yet to experience from any manufacturer that deals in any area where I've test paddled. Almost all kayak manufacturers claim that theirs don't weathercock. The only kayak that I've paddled that is claimed by the designer (not manufacturer) not to weathercock did in fact weathercock when I paddled it for a weekend - so much so that I had to use the rudder for a while (which, while supplied, was claimed not necessary). Pardon my scepticism. <<<<<<< You certainly have valid reasons to be skeptical. How many kayaks have your tried? Where do you live? Which kayaks are you speaking of? You said your kayak had an adjustable skeg. If you deploy it fully does the kayak still weatherhelm in a side wind? Which kayak is it? You said you barely used the skeg so that you weathercocked up into the wind to ferry. I think you would be better off (in total energy used to reach the destination) by deploying the skeg more fully (and accepting its additional frictional loss) and paddling/ferrying at a much shallower angle. Your paddling partners might appreciate it too. >>>>>>My comments were addressed to someone who uses a kayak they already have, not one that exists in theory or in a distant market. All kayaks, in my experience, weathercock to some extent in some speed range. We are also in a position where we rent or borrow a kayak and have little control over the make or type. Learning to avoid weathercocking problems by adjusting trim, using skegs or rudders or by changing paddle technique are all equally valid and useful. Under certain circumstances, ferrying is as well. A wise paddler chooses the best approach for the conditions and kayak at hand.<<<<<<< I'd dispute that they are equally useful, but agree all are worth looking at. >>>>>>>>>You have your reasons for not wanting to use ferry techniques, just as I have mine for using them. That's fine. I wouldn't want folks not to try it because of your objections. They would be well off by trying it and seeing how they like it. If they find it to their advantage, that's good, if not, they'll agree with you and use other techniques.<<<<<< I can't help but ferry when crossing a wind. The angle I choose to do so at may be a different choice than yours though. I strongly recommend that kayakers experiment with every technique they are aware of or can imagine and then choose for themselves which ones they want to use (regardless of what some supposed expert might say). I would however listen to the expert and try any new techniques she suggested as well. The more techniques you are good at the better off you are likely to be in a wide variety of situations. You seem to have misinterpreted much of what I wrote in my last post and are responding to your misinterpretations rather than to what I wrote. Please read them carefully again. I'm sorry if my reasoning was not clear to you. To everybody: If you think something I said specifically is in error please comment on just that point. If something is not clear to you and you want a clarification of what I mean, please ask me. Other than that I'm finished with writing on this subject. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************Received on Tue Dec 10 2002 - 04:02:47 PST
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