On occasions I have admired Doug Lloyd's paddling prowess. On occasions I have speculated on his judgment. On this occasion I question his probity. I rarely post to Paddlewise. I enjoy and learn from reading the diverse discussions, but as a passionate paddler who is very involved in the kayaking industry I try to remain objective and refrain from partisan postings. It therefore saddens me that the Irwin brothers tremendous paddling achievement has been debased by Doug Lloyd's fallacious reporting. Garth and Kevin used exceptional kayaks for their expedition. Garth used a Current Designs `Expedition'. I'm positive it served him well, it's a sea friendly kayak with great gear carrying capacity. A friend of mine paddled one in his successful circumnavigation of Vancouver Island in 2002. I worked for Brian Henry - the founder of Current Designs - for a few years and know the quality, finish and integrity of Current Design kayaks. Kevin used a Seaward `Quest' for the trip. The Quest is another awesome kayak. It's ideally suited for expeditions. As Seaward Kayaks is my current employer, I also know the quality, strength and integrity of their kayaks. The differences in manufacturing techniques between Current Designs and Seaward is not a matter that I have ever discussed with Doug Lloyd, despite his claim. "I do have insider information from someone who works for Seaward that the lay-up schedule isn't as good as Current Designs". The manufacturing techniques are different. Current Designs uses vacuum bagging and `H' channel, Seaward kayaks are handcrafted with interior and exterior fiber glass seams. I haven't spoken to either Garth or Kevin, but some of my colleagues at Seaward report that Kevin received no sponsorship from Seaward kayaks. They also report that Kevin was extremely pleased with the performance, handling, strength and integrity of his Quest and he doubted that any other kayak would have withstood the rigors of his paddling. (I understand he's a great explorer of rock gardens!) The Sales Manager at Seaward is presently trying to arrange economical shipment of Kevin's Quest to New Zealand. He loves his kayak so much he wishes to keep it. Paddlewise is a forum for paddlers. I quickly learned, in a former career as a journalist, to verify all my facts. No editor would ever let me submit any article which contained assumptions or innuendoes. As I was reminded, to assume makes an `ASS' out of `U' and `ME'. Paddlewise is an informative and often authoritative forum, therefore I cannot accept sloppiness from a person who claims to be an objective journalist. Especially when he uses the excuse, "Where I strayed was juxtaposing this with my personal conclusions about the Quest's lay-up -- but that is more an issue of poor wordsmithing that false reportage." I strongly disagree. I, most certainly, will never take Doug Lloyd's reportage seriously again, unfortunately the forums and publications for which he writes will also suffer credibility. c. banner Thetis Island. B.C. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I do agree with most of what Chris Banner has poster (disagreements are minor, inconsequential, personal, or have already been addressed by myself). Of all the paddlers I know connected with the industry, Chris is the one I respect the most in terms of balance and propriety. This has not been a good year for me at all, and to loose the respect of Chris hurts more than any other force combined. I've been involved in two Coast Guard rescues, and now a second very poor episode of fumbled reportage (the first was over a tour operator on the Central coast last year). So, on two accounts, I am on my second strike. They say three strikes and you are out. While others may not give me another chance, I shall give myself another chance on both fronts - bearing in mind I best tread very carefully from now on. As for other publications, I doubt anyone appreciates the hours of dedicated fact-finding that goes on behind the scenes. Doug Lloyd (who appreciates that there still is a forum like Paddlewise where information and opinion can be freely shared -- with or without journalistic standards -- with minimal moderation) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Doug Lloyd" <dougl_at_islandnet.com> said in a previous post: >In terms of deficient lay-ups, I have a right to my opinions, and I still maintain this to be true in general.< >I certainly don't want to belabour this thread anymore, but I did want to clarify this sentence above, as apparently what I say on Paddlewise has much farther reaching consequences than I had ever imagined a few comments on a chat line could. Doug, while I haven't seen much opposing commentary on the list, I must assume you're getting some sort of tongue-lashing back-channel. If you can't be honest here, can you be honest anywhere? You are simply one person, without commercial connections. Aren't you entitled to your opinions, the same as anyone else? Lots of folks feel free to bash sponsons with impunity. Can't Doug be honest about his good and bad impressions of products by even reputable manufacturers? Every manufacturer has its good and bad points. The bad points should be aired publicly, too, so the boat-buying-public can make an informed decision. If anyone feels the need to bash Doug for his honesty, shame on you. Take someone to task for _how_ they say something, sure, but not for saying it in the first place. I don't believe Doug was specifically bashing Seaward (or CD, either, for that matter), simply bringing up some potential problems...if I were considering a boat purchase, I'd sure want to know about both the good and bad points. >I'm currently thinking about another boat for long-range trips, something lighter and more manoeuvrable than my "point-and-shoot" Nordkapp. I'd like something with a chine hull and lots of gear capacity. The Romany 18 ... The Romany kayaks vary so widely from advertised weights... More maneuverable, probably. Lighter? Maybe lighter than your HMS Nordkapp dreadnought, but not a light boat by any means. 57 lbs., I think, is the advertised weight. Not lightweight for a glass boat. And resin heavy? Oh, yes, resin heavy. The Explorer 18 is a beautifully designed boat, but from what I've heard and seen, the Quality Control doesn't quite match up to the design. It makes no sense to me to have a 10 lb. overweight resin-heavy kayak. Why not an extra 5 lbs. of glass or kevlar set in 5 lbs extra resin. Less flaking, less cracking, less brittle, more strength, more abrasion resistance. Same carry weight. I think Mr. Dennis' (NDK) and Mr. Goodman's (VCP) goals of having a near-indestructible boat are admirably met, but could be met better with a little better layup. If we don't mind that weight, we could fit even more glass into the layup if we vacuum-bagged the boats...even more glass, even less resin. Why do I say this? I'm repairing a NDK Romany in my shop right now that had about 1/8" of gelcoat in the keel behind the skeg box, and the glass mat didn't even get down that low. No glass at all in 1' of the keel. Just gelcoat. When the gelcoat cracked/wore thin, the stern compartment started filling with water. In all fairness to the company that Doug "maligned" in his previous posts, QC is much better, but layup schedules may not be as aggressive. I think Mariner kayaks and some other, smaller, more "custom" manufacturers may be closer to meeting the needs of an aggressive paddler. Lots of glass, laid where needed, more as requested, and vacuum-bagged to control resin content and weight. In contrast, German-manufactured Prijon glass kayaks have beautiful quality control. They are just too lightly constructed, in my honest opinion. Gelcoat is too thin, and not enough glass. But for the glass, and gelcoat, and resin that is involved, it's a perfect ratio, and they are very well-made. I've seen a lot of cracking around bulkheads, I suspect because the hull flexes too much, causing too much of a stress riser at the bulkhead. All kayaks have some amount of a stress riser at the bulkhead, but stiffer kayaks have much, much less...and bulkheads with curved edges tend to minimize this effect...kevlar more than glass...but I digress. >...and the Foster "Legend" Being currently manufactured by....Seaward! Does Nigel Foster spec a different glass layup schedule for his kayaks produced by Seaward, or are they receiving a "standard" Seaward layup? Another comment Doug made about gelcoat-to-structural glass integrity. If the glass isn't installed at just the right time, there isn't a good bond. If done too soon after gelcoat is sprayed in the mold, the fabric can get sucked into the gelcoat, and you get poor control of your gelcoat thickness. If too late after it "gels", you can get a poor bond or voids between glass and gelcoat. This can be better controlled in the vacuum bagging construction process than with a hand-layup, but VB'ing manufacturers aren't totally immune, either. Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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