>>>>>Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:50:12 -0800 From: "Mary Zuschlag" <mzuschlag_at_attbi.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Lightweight backpacking stoves (was: Introduction) > > Several of us have also had discussion about silnylon tarps and > > lightweight flies, whether for bivvying or regular camping...comments > > here appreciated, too! > > I use a trekkers tarp it is great for groups of 3 or 4 you can pitch it high as a tarp or low as a tent. <snip><<<<< I've been a big tarp fan for a long time. For weeklong trips, we generally bring a tarp for each tent and a large "community" tarp to gather under for cooking & eating. Put a tarp over your tent and suddenly no more problems with condensation or tracking in rainwater when entering the tent or donning or removing raingear (you may be able to tell this is written by a native US Pacific northwest person). Although the bulky reinforced plastic tarps are inexpensive and adequate for short trips, for longer trips it's tough to beat a coated polyester tarp. [Nylon works fine as well, except that it's more sensitive to UV radiation and tends to stretch more, especially when wet (which raintarps tend to get, duh...)]. They take up much less space and weight than the cheapo blue plastic tarps. Regarding stoves, in my opinion we are still waiting for the perfect stove. I've got a new MSR Whisperlite, which is very reliable but (despite the advertising) still don't simmer very well, at least for very long. I've also got an Apex II, which simmers really well when it's not verging on exploding in a pillar of flames, and also provides high heat output with boiling times approaching the MSR -- if you don't mind a little anxiety while you're cooking. Then there's the MSR Dragonfly, sounding a little like a jet taking off as others have mentioned, but which also tends to concentrate the output into a narrow flame that's not great for cooking. Then there's the cannister-type stoves which are easy to use and great for cooking, but are bulky and more expensive to operate and require hassling with the cannisters. And, in my opinion the alcohol stoves suffer from having less heat output (partially because of the design but also because alcohol has less energy than gasoline) and require larger amounts of fuel. All I ask for is a stove that lights and adjusts and warms up nearly as well as butane; is as reliable and lightweight and stable as the Whisperlite; has a broad even flame like the Apex II in a good mood; burns cheap unleaded gasoline without getting gummed up; works well in both summer and winter; doesn't require earplugs to use -- but makes just enough noise so you know it's still running; doesn't cost an-arm-and-a-leg; will hold together long enough to bequeath it to your grandchildren (sorry, the kids have to get their own, since I'm still using it); and which gets the thumbs-up by all the airlines. Is that too much to ask? Evan Dallas Woodinville Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
...doesn't cost an-arm-and-a-leg; will hold together long enough to bequeath it to your grandchildren (sorry, the kids have to get their own, since I'm still using it); and which gets the thumbs-up by all the airlines. Is that too much to ask?... The Optimus Nova will answer all the above except the airline (no stove will get thumbs up anymore) and it does cost an arm and a leg ($150). SS "Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today" James Dean *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Regarding stoves, in my opinion we are still waiting for the perfect stove. > I've got a new MSR Whisperlite, which is very reliable but (despite the > advertising) still don't simmer very well, at least for very long. I've > also got an Apex II, which simmers really well when it's not verging on > exploding in a pillar of flames, and also provides high heat output with > boiling times approaching the MSR Interesting choices. I too have been a long time user of both the MSR Whisperlite and the Apex II. Some time back I rebought the Whisperlite to get some of the updates to the design (Shaker jet cleaner so there's one less maintenance tool to carry, and better pump design from my 12 year old model). I'm not sure I understand your reference to the Apex II ills though. Mine has been as bullet proof as the MSR, which surprises me since the burner portion isn't as simple, robust and bomb-proof as the MSR. I agree though that while better than the older MSR's it still isn't something that I can simmer on. My MSR is generally always the water boiler. It's a virtual jet engine when it's going full blast, with the whole burner portion glowing cherry red. I don't find I can get near that performance with the Apex II. Though much of that excess heat is likely lost to the air unless you're using the wind screen with a close fit, and pots with the external heat capturing vanes to collect more of the heat slipping by the outside sides of the pot. On the other hand there's also enough excess for everyone to gather around and warm up over, just as though it was an open fire. But the Apex is wonderful for simmering without worry of setting it too low that it will go out. More than makes up for it's extra size when packed. Having two stoves always gives nice flexibility (and backup safety) anyway, letting you cook something on one, while keeping water hot for drinks, any boiled food pouches, and wash-up water. -- Craig Bowers *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Cartridge stoves are nice for shorter trips, or when you don't want liquid fuel to leak in your storage hold. I have a SnoPeak model that is light, very small, very dependable, and it simmers as well as runs on full-tilt boogie. Cartridges can be UPS'd or such to destinations and the stove packs up so small as to pass in packed baggage w/o a hitch. Cartridges are not recyclable, which sucks, and if you don't clock usage, it can be somewhat dodgy predicting left-over burn time. They do detach and reattach w/o any fuss. My MSR Whisperlight is dependable, can be readily bodged in the field with the right tools and parts, can blow torch mounds of snow into water, doesn't simmer worth a damn. Their Dragonfly model has better simmer control. Better choice for longer trips. Multi-fuel models are worth considering if you go where Coleman isn't available. Travel via air is sometimes problematic and you may have to ship the stove, empty fuel bottles, and buy fuel at destination. White gas/ Coleman fuel is a pain when you have to buy it in larger amounts as unused fuel doesn't store well for extended time periods...it degrades and then gunks your stove more quickly than clean fuel. Kero and auto gas require adapters and you need to clean the stove frequently as these fuels burn dirty. I used the nesbit tab stoves, alcohol stoves, etc. and find these to have their own merits but not as adaptable, a bit too fussy, etc. It's worth noting that in some situations, stoves are very much a matter of personal survival and emergency kit. You can't give hyperthermic victims hot liquids if you've no source for reliable and fast flame. It's worth having one of each type stove for flexible trip planning. I tend to use the cartridge stove for shorter trips, the liquid fuel for longer journeys. Your mileage may vary, and the different makers of these stove types are worth a closer look. I think REI and MEC both have comparison pages on their web sites, and Backpacker Magazine has run field tests on both types, so you might check their archives. -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "William Jennings" <will_at_bigwoodenradio.com> >or when you don't want liquid fuel to leak in your storage hold. Buy a good fuel bottle - I've never had one leak in decades - even when a Sigg bottle got crunched (in spite of its appearance, this bottle is still used for storing solvent). Inspect the O-ring and replace before it's a problem. > to destinations and the stove packs up so small as to pass in packed > baggage w/o a hitch. But still not legal according to the airlines. BTW, there was a bit on CNN last night where they pointed out that in some US states, if you have something (stove, knife etc) that is confiscated at check-in for a flight, you may be able to buy it back thru ebay! Apparently, that's how they unload the stuff in some areas. > Cartridges are not recyclable, which sucks My main complaint against cartidge stoves. The Coleman X-series stoves use partly recyclable cartidges - the nozzle bit comes off and the rest of the body can be tossed into the recycle bin with the aluminum pop cans. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:06 PM -0500 1/4/03, Michael Daly wrote: >[SNIP] > >But still not legal according to the airlines. BTW, there was a bit >on CNN last night where they pointed out that in some US states, >if you have something (stove, knife etc) that is confiscated at >check-in for a flight, you may be able to buy it back thru ebay! >Apparently, that's how they unload the stuff in some areas. I've been wondering if this is a possible advantage of travelling with an alcohol stove. You could just keep the fuel in any plastic bottle or fill an old Jack Daniels bottle or something. Just hope they don't ask you at the gate to "prove" that's really a bottle of Stoli in your pack! -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
While I was looking at stoves yesterday, the salesman claimed the 2003 Whisperjet will have a new simmer control. I have no way of confirming this, but it is a hopeful sign. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Patrick Maun" <patrick_at_patrickmaun.com> > At 7:06 PM -0500 1/4/03, Michael Daly wrote: > >[SNIP] > > > >But still not legal according to the airlines. > > I've been wondering if this is a possible advantage of travelling > with an alcohol stove. Still not legal AFAIK. However, it does make the homebuilt alcohol stove attractive. You can pack most of the parts for a simple stove and assemble it at the destination (or make it there completely - some only need a snip here and a snap there). When you're done, remove the fiberglass (or whatever) stuffing and toss the rest into the recycling bin. That way you're never travelling with a stove that is used and hence forbidden on the aircraft. > You could just keep the fuel in any plastic > bottle or fill an old Jack Daniels bottle or something. > > Just hope they don't ask you at the gate to "prove" that's really a > bottle of Stoli in your pack! If you're crossing a border, watch that it doesn't put you over your duty free limit! :-) Stove alcohol is readily available in many areas, so carrying it along may be a low priority. If you splurge on plain drinking ethanol (assuming the local supply is cheap), you don't even have to toss it when you're finished your trip - just share it with your paddling buddies before boarding! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Still not legal AFAIK. However, it does make the homebuilt alcohol > stove attractive. You can pack most of the parts for a simple stove > and assemble it at the destination (or make it there completely - > some only need a snip here and a snap there). When you're done, remove > the fiberglass (or whatever) stuffing and toss the rest into the > recycling bin. That way you're never travelling with a stove that > is used and hence forbidden on the aircraft. Most of our Canadian airlines are somewhat vague (though the ticket counter folks unfortunately are neither vague nor well versed in common sense). The dominant carrier at least gives some deference to IATA (International Air Transport Association). The Jan 1, 2003 revisions to the IATA Dangerous Goods Transport Regulations (resulting from the United Nations Recommendations on the Transport of Dangerous Goods, the ICAO Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air and industry recommendations) adds a specific liquid fuel stove exemption, depending on packing procedures. Specifically from: http://iata.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=1960881&EXTRA_ARG=&host_id=4&page_id=4363&query=stove&hiword=STOVE+ Section 2 – Limitations Three new items have been added to the list of articles and substances acceptable for carriage by passengers and crew (Section 2.3 and Table 2.3.A). These are: With operator approval in checked baggage only * Liquid fuelled camping stoves – Provided that steps have been taken to nullify the hazard by draining and air-drying the fuel container, or rinsing the fuel container with cooking oil to raise the flash point, then wrapping the fuel container in absorbent material and placed in a polyethylene or equivalent bag. Where the liquid-fuelled camping stove is prepared in this manner it can be classified as non-hazardous. [Remainder snipped] Also a specific article on stoves here: http://www.iata.org/dangerousgoods/passenger/nullify_the_danger.htm# As always though we'll be held to the IQ level of the counter staff at the carrier of choice. Similar to BOEING specifically making mention of portable GPS as safe for use on their fleet (analogous to FeatherCraft printing in their manual that wearing a blue sweater is allowable in their kayaks), yet Alaska Airlines forbids it. Ah well... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I will chime in again in support for alcohol stoves, be it for kayaking or backpacking. I started using one of the Trangia stove models a year ago and can not say enough good things about them from ease to reliability to safety. The only down side I can think of is compared to my Peak1 Feather ??? stove the Trangia is more difficult to control output on especially low output and low output in a wind. Otherwise it is great for boiling water, ESPECIALLY in the wind where in my experience it only makes it burn hotter with all the extra oxygen the flame is getting. Still I try and use a wind screen though. With two gas stoves that get little use I should sell them to someone else that likes maintaining them. I will keep at least my big two burner stove for when I lead groups and need to boil lots of water… Then again, perhaps I could outfit the Big Mama with alcohol burners! Cheers! Bob .......................................................... Robert Brubaker "Hitch your wagon to a star." Ralph Waldo Emerson http://home.earthlink.net/~rbrub/ .......................................................... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Craig Bowers" <craig_at_bowers.net> > The Jan 1, 2003 revisions to the IATA Dangerous Goods Transport > Regulations (resulting from the United Nations Recommendations on the > Transport of Dangerous Goods, the ICAO Technical Instructions for the > Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air and industry recommendations) > adds a specific liquid fuel stove exemption, depending on packing > procedures. This is good news. Given the date, anyone travelling will probably have to do some educating of the airline staff when boarding. I'd be tempted to get approval in writing before flying. You should post this on rec.boats.paddle and possibly rec.backpacking (I no longer follow the latter), since many folks would like to know about this. There must be some good squeaky wheels out there for this to have been changed. Thanks for letting us know! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The emphasis in this thread so far has been on stoves. Let's turn to tarps. I use a tarp at almost every campsite, mainly because I paddle in wet places. Typically, the tarp is the first thing to go up, for use in staging and unpacking ... because it is raining when we arrive! What do I use? Simple stuff. I've owned and tested fancy ones and in the end I prefer plain old rectangular, grommetted-on-the-edge coated nylon tarps. The ones with aerodynamic shapes do not allow a canopy effect, permitting rain to swoop under the edges. And, with the addition of tie points (to sewn-on loops of webbing) at several places on the top of the tarp, I can skyhook to limbs, etc., above, and avoid the dreaded center pole. I have used a 7 x 9 for two, a 10 x 10 for two, a 10 x 12 for four, and a bud has an 18 x 12 that is dandy for half a dozen seated eaters and cribbage players. When in doubt, go one size larger than you think you will need. The "edge effect" of blown moisture makes that extra foot of dimension into what seems like more than another foot of room when the rain falls. Coated nylon works better for me than the cheaper woven polyethylene ("blue tarps") because the nylon is easier to modify or sew to, is much quieter in the wind, and packs down smaller in the front hatch. I paid about $35 for my 10 x 10 and a 10 x 12 runs about $40 from Campmor these days. I'll sell my fancy-Dan tarps (Marmot, Kelty) to anybody with ready cash. I do not carry poles, and rarely use stakes. The former is too bulky, and the latter almost never work in sand or on rock (where I seem to camp, most days). Buried deadmen work well in sand, and on a rocky surface, porta-rocks are the anchor of choice. If I do carry stakes, I take the wimpy backpacker ones, 'cause they're small to pack and work well in consolidated sod. Otherwise, I saw/chop my own out of downed wood. Center poles are not a problem in my part of the Northwest, although in areas like national parks or other locales demanding minimum impact camping, I would carry poles, to avoid conflict with wood harvest rules. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> the latter almost never work in sand or on rock (where I seem to camp, most > days). The best commercial stake (but almost impossible to find) are twizel pegs. These are plastic stakes that screw into the ground. I still have a few of the larger size. I have only been able to find the smaller size intermittently. They are GREAT for the hard sod (end of logging roads, commercial campground). For beaches you generally do not need because of drift logs etc. I do use them when storms push me into the woods. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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