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From: Donald Schoengold <schoengold_at_earthlink.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Sources for a used folding kayak
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 19:14:43 -0800
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e.  headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.]

I can't remember the name of it but there is a folding kayak rental place in
the Seattle area that sells used rentals.  I was satisfied with how they
treated me when I bought my Feathercraft.

-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Dallas


I'm considering buying a used folding single kayak for a longer trip this
summer flying into Alaska, then selling it afterwards (unless I end up
liking it so well, I just add it to the collection!).  Does anyone have any
suggestions where I should look to find one and what a reasonable price
would be, assuming it's in decent shape.  Can you generally take it on an
airline as regular baggage or do the airlines charge extra?  Any info would
be much appreciated.
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sources for a used folding kayak
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:31:30 -0800
Evan Dallas wrote:

>> I'm considering buying a used folding single kayak for a longer trip this
summer flying into Alaska, then selling it afterwards (unless I end up
liking it so well, I just add it to the collection!).  Does anyone have any
suggestions where I should look to find one and what a reasonable price
would be, assuming it's in decent shape.  Can you generally take it on an
airline as regular baggage or do the airlines charge extra?  Any info would
be much appreciated. >>

Evan, for an alternative to more expensive Kleppers and Feathercraft,
check out the Folbot Web Board (  http://www.folbot.com/yak.htm  ),
where there is always some traffic in used Folbots. Prices there are
typically more realistic than eBay, where things get bid up some.

Folbots are cheaper than Klepper and Feathercraft, and plenty durable.  I've
done several two-week excursions on the salt (Charlottes, W Coast of
Vancouver Island) in my Greenland II double.  I would not take it through
the surf, but it handles rough seas quite well, and the hull is bombproof.

Feathercraft make the highest quality folder on the market, in my opinion,
and at a pretty price, too.

The Folbots are __not__ as strong as Feathercraft, but generally much easier
to assemble and take down.

The Web Board will also have a lot of stuff on practical packing of folders
for airline travel -- which is much dicier these days than it was pre-9/11.
One recent poster described having his __entire__ kit disassembled and then
he had to re-pack hurriedly to make a connection, part of the TSA security
arrangements.  Not typical, but they picked him for a "random" check.

I have no affiliation with Folbot, just a satisfied customer.

Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

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From: <FoldingBoats_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sources for a used folding kayak
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:25:36 EST
In a message dated 2/27/2003 7:42:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gpewitt_at_execpc.com writes:

> ... I don't know of "another folder" that I would be more comfortable in or 
> feel safer in than my Kodiak. ...

Which of the potential "other folders" have you paddled extensively? The 
Kodiak is an excellent boat, as you say, and it would be interesting to which 
direct "boat-to-boat" comparisons your above statement applies!

Best regards,
Ralph

Ralph C. Hoehn
Ralph_at_Atlatl-Kayaks.com / Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com
www.Atlatl-Kayaks.com / www.PouchBoats.com
phone: +1-203-324-0901

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From: <Niilus_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sources for a used folding kayak
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:33:55 EST
In a message dated 2/27/2003 4:42:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
gpewitt_at_execpc.com writes:



> I have had five Folbots and currently have three.  I 
> traveled all over England and fairly extensively in the states and have 
> never found the Folbots to be lacking in any way.  And I can buy two of 
> them new for the price of a used Feathercraft.  Mind you I'm not knocking 
> Feathercraft or Klepper.  It's just that I don't think they are worth two 
> or three times as much money. 
> 



It all depends on how you intend to use them and in what conditions.  I 
prefer my Folbot Aleut over my Feathercraft K-1 and K-Light for some uses.  I 
prefer my K-1 over the Aleut and K-Light for other uses and finally I prefer 
my K-Light over the K-1 and Aleut at other times.  It's like picking the 
right tool for the job.

Tony

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From: al.m <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sources for a used folding kayak
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:40:28 -0800
> prefer my K-1 over the Aleut and K-Light for other uses and finally I
prefer
> my K-Light over the K-1 and Aleut at other times.  It's like picking the
> right tool for the job.
>
> Tony

K-Light is a nice boat.  Light, fast and very compact.  When I recently
asked local Feathercraft dealer, why did they discontinue this model when it
was that popular, his ansewr was that 15ft Kahuna (35 lbs or 16 kg) would be
even more popular.  Unfortunately, they are rarely sold used, and used
"expedition" version (with 2 hatches) is even more rare.
Back to the topic, - both Aleut and K-light can hardly be considered as
expedition boats.  Eventually savings (on relatively low price of these two)
would be eliminated by expensive light-weight and low-volume gear unless you
already got such.  And everyday loading of such boat would become a real
ordeal in a multiday expedition.  I wouldn't recommend practicing this for
those without enough patience :-).
Alex.

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From: Gary Pewitt <gpewitt_at_execpc.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sources for a used folding kayak
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:59:49 -0600
<excess text removed by admin>

Niilus, right you are.  A garage full of kayaks, one for each use, is the 
best way to go- if you can afford it.  I have three: a Folbot Super for 
fishing and sailing, a Folbot sporty for all around paddling and some 
sailing, and a Folbot Kodiak for journeys longer than a day trip.  I don't 
believe I'd be any happier with Kleppers or Feathercrafts (or any less 
happy) but I would be a -lot- poorer.
The money I saved will pay for a lot of trips and gear.  And as I said my 
Folbots have never let me down.
73  Gary



At 10:33 AM 2/27/03 -0500, Niilus_at_aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 2/27/2003 4:42:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>gpewitt_at_execpc.com writes:
>
>
>
> > I have had five Folbots and currently have three.  I
> > traveled all over England and fairly extensively in the states and have
> > never found the Folbots to be lacking in any way.  And I can buy two of
> > them new for the price of a used Feathercraft.  Mind you I'm not knocking
> > Feathercraft or Klepper.  It's just that I don't think they are worth two
> > or three times as much money.
>
>It all depends on how you intend to use them and in what conditions.  I
>prefer my Folbot Aleut over my Feathercraft K-1 and K-Light for some uses.  I
>prefer my K-1 over the Aleut and K-Light for other uses and finally I prefer
>my K-Light over the K-1 and Aleut at other times.  It's like picking the
>right tool for the job.
>
>Tony
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From: <Rcgibbert_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sources for a used folding kayak
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:59:07 EST
In a message dated 2/27/2003 6:42:02 AM Central Standard Time, 
gpewitt_at_execpc.com writes:


> I traveled all over England and fairly extensively in the states and have 
> never found the Folbots to be lacking in any way.  And I can buy two of 
> them new for the price of a used Feathercraft.  Mind you I'm not knocking 
> Feathercraft or Klepper.  It's just that I don't think they are worth two 
> or three times as much money.  

I do.

I respect your opinion about the quality of the Folbot product and their 
excellent service. I don't knock peoples choice of boats, either, It's yours, 
have fun, that's why we do it. Just stick to the kind of water it was 
designed for. I will take issue with the perception you, however 
inadvertently, created that a Feathercraft or a Klepper is not worth 2 to 3 
times as much money.

I don't own a Klepper so I won't address their issues other than to say that 
their tremendous quality and robustness has lead intrepid paddlers across the 
Atlantic twice and the Gulf of Carpenteria once. It is a tough boat that has 
spent the better part of a century earning its well deserved reputation.

As a Feathercraft Khats owner I would say that anyone who wants to pay the 
2-3 times of what a Folbot is worth will have the following advantages:

Performance design that is as speedy as many performance hardshells (I also 
own a Nordkapp, which in my opinion is faster, but not by much).
A very rugged frame that surfs well and handles that kind of use.
Welded seam construction for zero water leakage into the vessel.
single backpack to contain all boat and paddling related equipment.
6" less beam to push through the water, 22" vs 28"
A few more feet of water line for actual speed, 18' vs 15'
A composite cockpit rim that accepts real spray decks, like the provided 
neoprene one.
Bone dry hatches and hatch covers.
A painter.
One of the most comfortable kayak seats I've tried.
Internal skin reinforcement at wear points. ( Folbot's expedition model pads 
the stringers, but doesn't reinforce the hull).
Same 300 pound payload as the Kodiak.
A sea sock.
2 very high quality floatation bags.
A very impressive customer service team.

In my opinion, it would be more fair to compare the Feathercraft Kahuna at 
2200 dollars US vs the Kodiak, which similarly equipped sells for just under 
1800. I won't comment on the Kahuna's performance characteristics because 
I've only put one together but not paddled it. It took 20 minutes the first 
time, but once you know how to put a Feathercraft together it's quite similar 
for all of them. The Kahuna is still manufactured with impressive materials 
and construction, doesn't leak, etc, yet weighs 35 pounds versus 55 for the 
Kodiak. Is it worth 400 dollars? To me, yes.

Cheers,

Rob G

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From: al.m <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sources for a used folding kayak
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:37:30 -0800
> it would be more fair to compare the Feathercraft Kahuna at
> 2200 dollars US vs the Kodiak, which similarly equipped sells for just
under
> 1800.

Folbot has winter sales lasting pretty long (2 months?), and right now
Kodiak in "expedition" version costs 1500.  I don't know if it's still a
winter sale, but anyway, such price isn't unusual. Kahuna is 2300 in basic
version, sometimes it's possible to get it in Exp version for the same
price, but I didn't see Kahuna for 2200 (even basic one).  F-craft has
raised prices once or twice in last 3 years.  In Canada, after exchange
USD/CDN, may be its 2200 - but don't forget 14-15% of canadian compound tax
for residents.
These 2 boats are too different.  Kodiak is much wider and stable, more
suitable for fishing, paddling in rough seas without much skills, but there
is a price to pay - slower speed, less water-tight spraydeck.

Alex.




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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sources for a used folding kayak
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:49:37 -0800
Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote:

>> In my opinion, it would be more fair to compare the Feathercraft Kahuna
at
2200 dollars US vs the Kodiak, which similarly equipped sells for just under
1800. I won't comment on the Kahuna's performance characteristics because
I've only put one together but not paddled it. It took 20 minutes the first
time, but once you know how to put a Feathercraft together it's quite
similar
for all of them. The Kahuna is still manufactured with impressive materials
and construction, doesn't leak, etc, yet weighs 35 pounds versus 55 for the
Kodiak. Is it worth 400 dollars? To me, yes. >>

I agree with Rob that the Kahuna and the Kodiak are the boats to use when
comparing Folbot and Feathercraft.  I have paddled both, and own a Kodiak.
The Kahuna is a little faster, but holds less.  The 300 lb payload rating
for the Kahuna is pretty accurate, while I bet the Kodiak would handle 400
easily, contrary to Folbot's conservative 300 lb figure.

Yet, I think they are different boats.  The Kahuna is much more watertight,
with a traditional cockpit that accepts a "normal" sprayskirt.  My Kodiak is
an "open cockpit" boat which comes with a (cheesy, in my opinion) coated
nylon spraydeck that pools water and leaks into my lap.  In addition, the
Kodiak leaks like crazy at the back of the cockpit.  Not a good choice for
heavy seas.

I don't think Folbot markets the Kodiak as a full-on ocean cruiser --
because it is not suited for that use.  I would be nervous as hell taking it
outside a surf zone, mainly because I would expect to get pasted coming
through surf.  I believe the sturdier construction of the Kahuna is a better
choice if you need a boat than can __better__ handle surf landings and
launches.

Rather, Folbot pitches the Kodiak as a good one for tamer waters -- the kind
of thing inland kayakers and those in protected waters might use.  Think
summer days on the lake, laid-back fishing trips in the warm summer sun,
paddling in the Everglades, and the like, with some wind waves as spice --
no surf!

I have not taken my Kodiak on the salt, but I have taken my Greenland II
(Folbot's double) on the salt, and it has handled some pretty big water in
the Charlottes and on the west coast of Vancouver Island.  It is not as
strong as Feathercraft's welded aluminum construction, and with the stock
spraydeck, not well-suited for heavy seas.  I have launched and landed it on
surge beaches, and it works well there.  It would be a disaster in a true
surf break.  I think dumping surf would kill it.  (A couple of us made
modified spraydecks.  See Mike Edelman's site for details:
http://foldingkayaks.org/kayakmods.html#folbot_spraydeck   The spraydecks we
made would  __not__ solve the problem of weaker construction, but do solve
any leakage problems, and make for quick entry/exit -- such as is needed on
surge beaches.)

I do not have the price figures for the Feathercraft double, but I bet it is
at least twice the cost of the Greenland II.  And, it would be worth it for
folks who want a full-on ocean cruiser.  The extra dollars would not be
worth it for someone intending tamer uses for his/her double.

Different boats, different uses.

No affiliation with either manufacturer.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

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