No one seems to know the answer to the first question, about the disappearance of the "ice cream headache" after a few days of exposure to cold water (surprising). The follow up question is this: Does the same type of adaptation, when applied to your whole body, have the potential to delay the onset of hypothermia? In other words: Can one increase their actual resistance to cold water through repeated controlled exposure? If the answer is yes (with some science or empirical evidence to back it up), then other questions obviously follow such as: "How frequent of exposure is required to maintain meaningful resistance?" I am really wondering if there is this additional benefit from "rescue practice". In that case, maybe they should be conducted with the minimal immersion gear tolerable. I have noticed that my perceived ability to tolerate being in cold water increases with repeated exposure, but unlike the ice cream headache, there are no clear symptoms to show that something has actually changed. It may just be that I don't mind being cold as much. Steve Brown *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve, The whitewater people I play kayak football with tell me that rolling in cold water is part of the norm in their sport. They claim that cold water acclimatization can last up to a year. Armed with this I started rolling again in 50 degree water in January with no ill effects except a very mild headache during the first session. A friend says he gets out of the shower and pours a glass of ice water down his back a few times a week to stay current. I don't think I will go that far. Jim et al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brown" <steve_at_brown-web.net> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:15 AM > Can one increase their actual resistance to cold water through repeated > controlled exposure? > > If the answer is yes (with some science or empirical evidence to back it > up), then other questions obviously follow such as: "How frequent of > exposure is required to maintain meaningful resistance?" > Steve Brown > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Does the same type of adaptation, when applied to your whole body, have the potential to delay the onset of hypothermia? In other words: Can one increase their actual resistance to cold water through repeated controlled exposure? No. Loss of body heat is inherent in the physics of the situation. You will do so regardless of frequency or length of experience. What -will- change is your response to the situation. You will have gained experience and knowledge of what you need to do. The diminished degree of response will buy you some time in dealing with the situation. That's not bad at all, but it doesn't remove the need for caution and the clothing etc. protections you would still need. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Joe P] At 10:27 am 18/03/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Does the same type of adaptation, when applied to your whole body, have the >potential to delay the onset of hypothermia? >In other words: >Can one increase their actual resistance to cold water through repeated >controlled exposure? > No. > Loss of body heat is inherent in the physics of the situation. Interesting that this should come up now. I caught a short programme on TV. A woman recently went to the Antarctic to be the first to swim a mile there. She had a swim on the way there at the South Shetlands where she had problems with the cold water though it wasn't as cold as she was going to swim in. She had mild hypothermia. During the mile swim she asked if she was there at about the halfway point and it was thought that she wouldn't make it. However she got her "second wind'" and finished the swim in better condition than the previous shorter swim in warmer (relatively) water. She was wearing a standard bathing suit, nothing else, no fat, no Vaseline etc. Part of it appears to be psychological and partly a good even fat layer. Alex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You should read the article in the New Yorker that appeared about a month ago about a cold water swimmer with unusual physiology who is able to tolerate more cold exposure than the rest of the population. Part of her regime is sleeping in the cold and swimming in the cold frequently which seems to have an effect on how her vascular system works to minimize heat loss. Other features of this woman are likely genetic and her fat distribution and such. There is a lot of variability of how people loose heat that has to do with factors that cannot be predicted with crude measurements such as simply weighing people and measuring their fat distribution. Part of the equation of heat loss is how core temperature is maintained by keeping the blood flow to the limbs and skin surface low and how much heat people are simply able to generate by burning calories... This is variable from person to person. The article suggests that it is possible to train oneself to tolerate cold to some degree. This woman is an extreme case. It makes interesting reading. I doubt that many kayakers would embrace her training regime which is extreme. (not much room for cuddling with loved ones among other things:) ) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm going to be in Scotland 23 May until the end of the month, Argyll area to start with. Any paddler around there? Alex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Steve Brown" <steve_at_brown-web.net> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:15 AM ... Can one increase their actual resistance to cold water through repeated controlled exposure? ... In a message dated 3/18/2003 10:32:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, pylka_at_castle.net writes: > No. Loss of body heat is inherent in the physics of the situation. ... There's no biological wiggle room to modify the pure physics? Changed response patterns with regard to surface blood circulation potentially? Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn info_at_FoldingBoatCenter.com www.FoldingBoatCenter.com phone: +1-802-649-2555 -- Ralph phone: +1-603-632-9500 -- Alv (yup, they rhyme) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <FoldingBoats_at_aol.com> > There's no biological wiggle room to modify the pure physics? Changed > response patterns with regard to surface blood circulation potentially? There are. The ability of a person to handle cold is dependent on fitness level. Those who are in shape can handle colder conditions than those who are out of shape, regardless of level of body fat. This is due to the enhancement of the cardiovascular system and the way the body learns to control blood flow to the skin and extremities when fit. When I was a xc ski racer, I'd spend hours outside (not always really active) in just lycra and polypro at temps of -10C (give or take 5C). I'd burn calories just staying warm (unlike today where I absorb calories just looking at food!). This is a fitness-related acclimatization. Some of this stuff is documented, though I can't offer a source off the top of my head. So - conclusion: fitter paddlers will do better than unfit. If you improve your fitness level, you will improve your cold tolerance. I'd offer anecdotal evidence that acclimatization to cold works - I spend a lot of time outdoors and can handle cold better than many others - but that's not scientific. Many others offer the same evidence - whether it's a psychological or physical reaction I can't say. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Joe wrote: > > No. > > > Loss of body heat is inherent in the physics of the situation. You will > do so regardless of frequency or length of experience. What -will- change is > your response to the situation. I remember a TV profile on a woman marathon swimmer (English channel crossings etc.) in which they mentioned that despite obviously being tremendously physically fit she had a very high %body fat. If I remember correctly they attributed it to an especially thick fat layer just under the skin which they said was a result of the training in all the cold water. It was long ago so I may have it all wrong but that is what I remember. Maybe there are some actual physical changes that do take place that change the result of the physics, but not the laws behind the physics. Of course in her case she spent a tremendous amount of time in cold water. Mark J. Arnold mjamja_at_earthlink.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There are many examples of adaptions on cold water. Remember the man diving 50metre in icy water (in siberia) without any kind of suit, only normal bathing clothes. All the ice swimmer especially in scandinavia and rusia. They open a hole in ice on rivers or seas and went in the water for a few minutes every day. With that treatment they never get ill over decades. All the british channels swimmers, liek the mentioned woman, order a special fat from a local drug store with special receipe. ALL channel swimmers wo met the regulations, need this fat and the skin. Extra fat unter the skin is another part of the story. Theese days, I´m reading "Anangula",the story of this german man, paddling in ´94 on the outer Aleuts. OK, strange guy and extremely exaggerating on all kayaking parts, but he uses also an easy kind of adaption. He mentioned the strategy of theAleuts. OK, do they had another chance, the Tlingit...? You may activate some reserves with autogenic training or yoga. I shower me each morning with cold water (in winter really nasty cold) after the normal warm shower. Each time its little bit easier for me. aso... But each time, your body hits the cold water, its pure stress. And there is no guaranty your body always stand the provement on cold water all the time. Because, we´re only human. What Joe P. writes is also true. You can´t beat the facts. But I think, you could get better chances in dealing with cold water. And even minutes with longer ability to movement can save ones life.Have a look in Fritdjof Nansens story "in night & ice" or what it is called in english, where he swim behind their kayaks with nothing on and get them back. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This was recently written up in Scientific American. "Interesting that this should come up now. I caught a short programme on TV. A woman recently went to the Antarctic to be the first to swim a mile there. " Tom Joyce ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Brown" <steve_at_brown-web.net> wrote: >> No one seems to know the answer to the first question, about the disappearance of the "ice cream headache" after a few days of exposure to cold water (surprising). The follow up question is this: Does the same type of adaptation, when applied to your whole body, have the potential to delay the onset of hypothermia? >> Steve, I do not have any authoritative, scientific studies at my fingertips to support such adaptation. Two pieces of "evidence" which suggest there may be long-term adaptation: 1. Sometime in the 19th century there was a missionary who got stranded on the coast of Argentina (Patagonia, actually) where the natives habitually hunted and lived in 40-50F air temps, sans clothing or furs. One might surmise the native population had self-selected (evolved) so they could handle this. The missionary survived, and was picked up about a year later, buck naked, and showing no ill effects. 2 There was a careful study done on cold water adaptation several years ago of extremities (fingers and hands, only), in the context of fish filleters who worked the slime line: experienced (read: habituated) filleters could stay on an 8-hour shift of work in 35F water with no loss of function. New employees could only tolerate 20 minutes, and then had to break for half an hour. Gradually, over a period of a month or so, new filleters could increase their tolerance for cold water exposure (hands only) and reach the same plateau as the old hands (pun intended). The tolerance could be maintained indefinitely if workers kept working in cold water. If they quit that, they lost the tolerance about twice as fast as they gained it: in other words, in about two weeks. The weakness in the second piece of "evidence" is that it only involves a small part of the body -- the investigators surmised adaptation mainly circumvented the usual shutdown of blood flow cold hands experience. This would mean those adapted would experience a __greater__ loss of body heat -- and would not increase their overall resistance to hypothermia. However, the study suggests there are adaptive mechanisms that change circulation patterns. If the body can effect a shutdown of peripheral, surfacial circulation, it would decrease the overall heat loss, and tht would delay hypothermia. (Note this is good physics: the outermost layer becomes a better insulator.) And, my personal experience: when I was regularly climbing and X-C-touring back in the 60's and '70's, I found that __for an equivalent set of conditions__ I needed much less insulation at the end of a several-day expedition than at the end. These were short trips of a week or so in subfreezing conditions. I expect that if I had been out expeditioning for 2 months, the cold adaptation would reach a max. In short, I think there is strong anecdotal evidence for adaptation, but I can not cite any quantitative scientific studies to confirm that. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here are the particulars of the New Yorker article: Cox, Lynne, "Swimming to Antarctica," New Yorker (Feb. 3, 2003) pp. 66-75. I found it fascinating. Evidently Cox had an inherently high tolerance for cold, which she developed to a high degree through a brutal acclimatization regime, and strategic weight gain. Once again, the answer to the question, "Is it nature or nurture?" is: "Both." Dan Harrison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:06:49 -0800 From: Robert Livingston & Pam Martin <bearboat2_at_attbi.com> Subject: Cold water adaptation - Part II You should read the article in the New Yorker that appeared about a month ago about a cold water swimmer with unusual physiology who is able to tolerate more cold exposure than the rest of the population. [snip] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I know that my first exposures after a couple weeks or a month without rolling in very cold water not only gives me a splitting "ice cream headache", I sometimes get so nauseous I feel like recoloring my sprayskirt. Dizziness, tunnel vision... But...if I persevere for an hour or so, it's mostly gone away. Then, I can roll the very next day without even the icecream headache. This temporary adaptation seems to go away after a couple weeks, and then I have to do it all over again. Shawn Steve Brown wrote: >No one seems to know the answer to the first question, about the >disappearance of the "ice cream headache" after a few days of exposure to cold water (surprising). __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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