I have noticed that most of the more experienced kayakers and even some not so experienced ones seem to be able to edge their kayaks much further than I can. I can't even get waterline above the shear line much less up over the sprayskirt as I often see others doing. This has been the case in several of the kayaks I have paddled. I can get more angle by leaning out instead of edging, but then only a little more before I reach the tipping point. Besides just a total lack of flexibility, is there some technique I am missing to get a larger heeling angle while still maintaining stability. Mark Arnoldmjamja_at_earthlink.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
William wrote: >Mark, > >In the boats that you paddle, how many are soft or hard or multi-chined? > >My Romany has a rounded chine transition, so it isn't a boat to 'carve >turns' >in the manner of hard or multi-chined hull shapes. My most recent experience has been with hard chined kayaks. I do find myself getting to one of the "click" points and not being able to make the kayak go any farther despite lifting one knee very hard and dropping the other knee almost to the hull. Even with a Meridan SK (very similar to Romany) I seemed to be limited in how far I could get it to heel without leaning. I did not have much time in the Meridian, so the small heel angle may just be a result of reluctance to really commit in an unfamiliar and definitely different feeling kayak. I was wondering if I might be missing something like a forward or aft lean or maybe extra upper body rotation that would help me get more edge than what I get from knee lift and side bend. I tried some variations but nothing really seemed to make much difference. The Mariner Elan that I am paddling is so responsive to edging that most of the time I get all the response I need. It just seemed like I was getting less heel than other people and I was wondering if I was doing something incorrect. The only time that I seem to need more turning effect is downwave in a short wavelength chop. Sometimes I get locked into an angle on a wave and have to wait for it to pass by before the edging seems to take affect. It could just be that in the waves I am just too tense to get even the small heel that I get on flat water. Mark J. Arnold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, > It just seemed like I was getting > less heel than other people and I was wondering if I was doing something > incorrect. Try these tips: As you edge, rotate your body toward the direction of your intended turn (toward the high knee). At the same time, lean slightly forward. Also, cock your head toward your high knee -- in other words, over the boat's center of gravity. > It could just be that in the waves I am just too tense to > get even the small heel that I get on flat water. You can address that universal tenseness with the following exercise: Imagine an "edging scale" from 0 to 5, with 0 being upright and 5 being just short of the tipping point. Now, call out a number to yourself and edge to that point. Vary the positions, from easy to squirrely and back again. Stay comfortable, but through repetition get CONSISTENT in hitting your marks and being STABLE in those positions. (Don't rush this: consistency is the key). Advance at a comfortable pace. You'll want to start this while stationary, but quickly incorporate forward movement into the drill. Paddle for 50 - 100 yards at each of the positions. As you get more consistent, seek out some chop and carry on. Pretty soon, you'll be very comfortable on edge. Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Bob, >As you edge, rotate your body toward the direction of your intended turn >(toward the high knee). >At the same time, lean slightly forward. >Also, cock your head toward your high knee -- in other words, over the >boat's center of gravity That was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. You also wrote: > > It could just be that in the waves I am just too tense to > > get even the small heel that I get on flat water. > You can address that universal tenseness with the following exercise: > > Imagine an "edging scale" from 0 to 5, with 0 being upright and 5 being just > short of the tipping point. > > Now, call out a number to yourself and edge to that point. Vary the > positions, from easy to squirrely and back again. Stay comfortable, but > through repetition get CONSISTENT in hitting your marks and being STABLE in > those positions. (Don't rush this: consistency is the key). Advance at a > comfortable pace. > One of the problems I am having is that when I edge I feel like I can only get to about 3.5 and then despite physically straining with knee lift and side bend the kayak will not heel any further. I am not close to tipping, I just can not make the kayak heel over further. To even get close to the tipping point I have to come out of the "J" position and start leaning out. Once I come out of the "J" and start to lean I feel like I go very quickly from the 3.5 point to the 5 point even though the kayak does not change heel angle very much. What I wanted was to be able to get to that 5 point (or at least closer to it) while still in the "J" position. Is that an unrealistic expectation? Mark J. Arnold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Has anyone experimented with the effects of changing the seating height on edging? Would just a folded-up towel make a difference? PJ Gudac. Mark Arnold <mjamja_at_earthlink.net> wrote:Thanks Bob, > One of the problems I am having is that when I edge I feel like I can only get to about 3.5 and then despite physically straining with knee lift and side bend the kayak will not heel any further. I am not close to tipping, I just can not make the kayak heel over further. To even get close to the tipping point I have to come out of the "J" position and start leaning out. Once I come out of the "J" and start to lean I feel like I go very quickly from the 3.5 point to the 5 point even though the kayak does not change heel angle very much. What I wanted was to be able to get to that 5 point (or at least closer to it) while still in the "J" position. Is that an unrealistic expectation? Mark J. Arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Has anyone experimented with the effects of changing the seating height on edging? Would just a folded-up towel make a difference? > PJ Gudac. Adding seat height does make a difference -- you lose a bit of initial stability but edging is facilitated. I think this is particularly true if you have a relatively high deck that might limit your flexibility. I'm not sure I would use a folded-up towel, since it will get soggy pretty quickly. A small therma-rest pad is ideal for that sort of experimentation, but anything (including the towel) that can be temporarily fixed in place will do. It's definitely worth a try. If you like the effect, then probably the best permanent solution would be to use foam to augment the current seat. Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I can't resist the urge to get out the Big Physics and reason the hell out of all of you. You know me, so press DELETE now, you might be enlightened before you know it. I go back to a question from Mark Arnold: > One of the problems I am having is that when I edge I feel like I can only > get to about 3.5 and then despite physically straining with knee lift and > side bend the kayak will not heel any further. I am not close to tipping, > I just can not make the kayak heel over further. To even get close to the > tipping point I have to come out of the "J" position and start leaning out. > Once I come out of the "J" and start to lean I feel like I go very quickly > from the 3.5 point to the 5 point even though the kayak does not change > heel angle very much. What I wanted was to be able to get to that 5 point > (or at least closer to it) while still in the "J" position. Is that an > unrealistic expectation? > > Mark J. Arnold > I'd like to first describe all 5 steps: 0: Sitting upright. Boat is in primary stability. 1-2: Boring. 3: (to keep to the steps of Mark) Boat is in secondary stability. Because the boat is in a stable position, there is no body lean required to keep the boat in this position. 4: Boat is past secondary stability, but heavily pushing to get back to it's stable position. Body lean is required to keep the boat from pushing itself upright. 5: Boat is on edge, stable like a pencil standing on it's tip is stable. No body lean required, constant adjustment of weight is required to keep the boat from going back to secondary stability, or capsising. Mark has a problem going from secondary stability to edge. If you read the steps, you'll realize that you have to lean out to get past step 4, but may not lean out once you reach step 5, or you will capsize. I see to ways to get past step 4: - Perfect timing and balance to move in full control through the steps - Going from 0 to 5 in one quick move. I use the second way. Try practicing with a paddlefloat. Use it to find the position of step 5: Push yourself up from a high brace in the wrong way: Body first, boat last. Push yourself up slowly, with your boat tilted as far as possible, until the weight is lifting from the paddlefloat. Stop! This is the position you're looking for. Try to remember it, then push yourself upright, and try to go in one swift move to the remembered position. Good luck. By the way: Mark, your name sounds Dutch. If you live in the Netherlands, I could give you a live demonstration some time. Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As usual, I'm catching up on all this list mail late at night. Since I finally got a video camera, and a digital eight at that, I've been digitizing snippets of movies from instructor courses and putting them on my website! They aren't perfect, and neither am I - but I think the low brace shows edging/j-lean pretty well. One problem with leaning (as in bell buoy) is the stress it puts on the shoulder. I've been twice through physical therapy and even they say "the box" puts stress on the shoulder. This directory has the low brace - love to hear any critiques! http://onwatersports.com/Movies/ Thanks, Andree > One of the problems I am having is that when I edge I feel like I can only > get to about 3.5 and then despite physically straining with knee lift and > side bend the kayak will not heel any further. I am not close to tipping, Also practice while sitting on the floor - work those obliques... Andree Hurley Certified Instructor Trainer, American Canoe Association Website - http://www.onwatersports.com/ Brochure: http://onwatersports.com/KIX/KixBrochure.pdf Upcoming instructor's course May 2: http://onwatersports.com/KIX/InstructorDevelopment.html Port Townsend, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Arnold said: is there some technique I am missing to get a larger heeling angle while still maintaining stability? I outfit my sea kayak the same as my whitewater boats and it seems to help me with having the control to edge the boat. My left leg has no working muscles, so I prefer a bit of a tight fit anyway. What I do to pad my hips is cut foam into a wedge shape and fasten it [with duct tape] to the seat sides so that the thick part of the wedge is just below the rim of the cockpit. This way the seat is comfortable and loose when I sit normally, but as soon as the boat tilts, my hip "falls" into the wide part of the pad and I'm locked in. I get the most support when upside down, making the roll easier. I also have a tight backband that falls across my back just at the top of my pelvis. When I am relaxed on the footbraces or bulkhead [I use different systems in different boats], which I keep slightly long, there is no pressure on my back. As soon as I tighten up by pushing against the footbraces/bulkhead, I am solid back to front. I never miss a roll because of a loose fit and I'm comfortable edging or sitting quietly. Hope that helps. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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