Shawn said >snipped<: >>>Why not a VB'ed boat with extra glass that is the same weight as the aforementioned hand-laid kayak....much more stiffness _and_ more strength. And only slightly more cost.<<< Yes, that's the current theory, but take two brand new kayaks from reputable manufacturers, flip them over so the hulls are face up, then grind through the gelcoat to the underlayer of glass with a sharp point on both the individual hulls. Bet the hand-laid, bit heavier boat will "fuzz" less at the core than the "squeezed-out" VB'ed lay-up. Bet you you will penetrate less on the hand-laid hull if the kayak is one made by a skilled glasser. Mongo like more resin. Mongo allowed to like more resin. Mongo buy boats with more resin. Mongo maybe not very intelligent, but Mongo not care what others think. :-) Please don't perform the above test on a retailer's kayaks in full view of the proprietor. :-) As for Kevlar composites, its slippery nature means the VB'er better know what they are doing. Mongo go now. Mongo working much overtime 'cause BC government lay off much workers -- now have to pay much overtime. Mongo's master not very intelligent, but maybe Mongo can buy new boat sooner. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Doug Lloyd <dalloyd_at_telus.net> wrote: > Yes, that's the current theory, but take two brand new kayaks from > reputable > manufacturers, flip them over so the hulls are face up, then grind > through > the gelcoat to the underlayer of glass with a sharp point on both the > individual hulls. Bet the hand-laid, bit heavier boat will "fuzz" > less at > the core than the "squeezed-out" VB'ed lay-up. I'll buy that argument.... Perhaps a "happier medium" would be a slightly resin-heavy (as opposed to the deadly 'resin-starved') VB'ed laminate. Barring, of course, a skilled laminator who doesn't soak things with too much resin. > Bet you you will > penetrate > less on the hand-laid hull if the kayak is one made by a skilled > glasser. Even a poor glasser will give you a hull which you can grind on awhile longer...excess resin will pool along the keel! I'll still argue that the resin is harder to grind into if it has glass in it. > Mongo allowed to like more resin. > Mongo buy boats with more resin. > Mongo maybe not very intelligent, but Mongo not care what > others think. :-) :D You're also not all that afraid of heavy kayaks, as past testimony would indicate!! > As for Kevlar composites, its slippery nature means the VB'er better > know what they are doing. But....so must a hand-laminator. Kevlar is less dense than resins, and will float up in a mold and starve itself. > Mongo's master not very > intelligent, but maybe Mongo can buy new boat sooner. What's the latest dream boat--a Foster boat from Seaward with a custom layup? Don't they VB their hulls? ;) (just playing devil's advocate!) All the best, Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn said : >snipped some great comments< > What's the latest dream boat--a Foster boat from Seaward with a custom layup? Don't they VB their hulls? ;) (just playing devil's advocate!) All the best, Shawn< I _don't_ claim any expertise in the area of fibreglass kayak construction (only destruction and modification "theology"). Unlike my Sea Kayaker articles which are well researched, this forum tends to be my dumping ground for flippant commentary and misc. ramblings. Usually, I try to share only what I observe and have experienced or laid witness to, and resultant opinions and "positions." Like you Shawn, I have seen examples of good and bad kayak construction, from both VB'd manufactures (some you would be surprised by to hear about -- no, don't ask, but do think outside of BC) and the hand-lay-up guys. My dream boat would be fairly stiff, with inflexible surfaces and strong impact resistance. I think a well made hand-lay-up kayak is capable of delivering, but I'd add Kevlar to the schedule to offset the bit of excess resin that even the best builder can't squeeze out. This costs more money, and may not be applicable to every paddler depending on intended use. I met up with a local paddler this weekend who just received his custom Foster Legend from Seaward. The Robin Egg Blue deck was flawless and well featured. The neatest little addition was a two to three inch section of deck line that ran past the last deck cleat. The knotted end was tied off to a section of bungee. This allows the paddler to slip their fingers under the line and grab hold of the deck line more easily, due to the "give" in the line from the bungee -- yet the knot will not go any further than the deck cleat (fitting, whatever). The hull was good and stiff, with an expedition lay-up and reinforced with Kevlar (just as I would specify). The overall weight wasn't too bad. Let's just say my appetite was wetted just a wee bit by this middleweight contender. If I had the money, I'd order a kayak with as much high-tech cloth, carbon, etc., as I could, but keep the weight _high_ -- not low...kind of like the Tsunami kayaks. Ultimately, I'd buy a boat based on design, not the methodology employed to build it -- all things being equal. I have a Nordkapp HS now, so the next boat would ideally be something that didn't need a rudder, something that carves a turn, something that has more volume for running whirlpools and tide races, and something that holds more gear for longer excursions while still having a nice "glide", and something with hard chines. I'd love to make an Outer Island, but it wouldn't be sufficiently enough of a change to make it worth while. Do I make sense Shawn? My circumstances in life don't allow me to own a fleet of kayaks like some of the lucky bums on this list. I do have the technology (probably as much as anyone on this list) to design and make my own wooden kayak. I have full access to 10 routers, 5 router tables, cutters galore, 6 tablesaws, a 6", 8" and 20" jointer, a 15", 24" planer, a 36" SCM widebelt sander, a shaper table...well, you get the picture. I could and would love to make a kayak that fits me exactly and incorporates those little features you are hard pressed to do with a manufactured boat, like custom bulkheads that "wrap around" the bilge pump, and such things. One well known Victoria paddler has designed and made a few of his own kayaks (for himself), but it has taken several tries to perfect (more or less) his perfect boat, in terms of performance and design (and mostly paddles a sexy little cut-down CD Slipstream for day trips -- a very sweet boat indeed). This isn't always the answer though, given the prototyping time and energy of creating your own wooden kayak. Now, if Nigel would just grow shorter and wider and get a bit of a gut and some bigger thighs and then design something to fit this new profile, I'd be perfectly set...other than negotiating with the local in-house spending authority of course, who keeps mentioning things like groceries, the kids education funds -- you know how it works eh Shawn? Doubleass Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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