I should have said my previous post was an announcement of a paddle event (acceptable?) and not an incitement to stir up a worm-can political/philosophical/tactical debate (unacceptable). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 06:13:33 -0800, sullivaned_at_pop.mts.kpnw.org said: > I should have said my previous post was an announcement of a > paddle event (acceptable?) and not an incitement to stir up > a worm-can political/philosophical/tactical debate > (unacceptable). The initial announcement went past my desk. I passed it on as it was for a paddling event. Were it not an announcement for a paddling event it would not have made it to the list. Regardless of the politics of those on the list announcements for paddling events are fair for submission. As long as the event is one which will not result in financial gain those making the post. I'm doing my best to figure out filters for avoiding any current event political/philosophical/tactical discussion. I've got some filters in place, let's hope they are sufficient. Please help me on this and don't try to have the political/philosophical/tactical discussions here.... Kirk -- Kirk Olsen kork4_at_cluemail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Olsen" <kork4_at_cluemail.com> > Regardless of the politics of those on the list announcements for > paddling events are fair for submission. As long as the event is > one which will not result in financial gain those making > the post. Kirk, I have to disagree with you on this one. IMHO, politics of any kind do not belong on the list. I would find it extremely distasteful if someone was advertising a paddle in support of segregation or a paddle in support of pedophiles. There are many people who will also find it distasteful to be supporting paddles that are in favor of a war or those that are protesting the government. There are many other ways to make one's voice heard concerning politics---lets keep it out of paddling and Paddlewise. Just my two cents, Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm not trying to fan flames or muddy the waters, to mix n match cliches. It's worth noting that any number of "Paddle For...." events are political, even when they seem to be 'slam dunks' for most of those on the list, or connect to issues that appear far less contentious. Fund-raising events to fight breast cancer or other illnesses are political when governments ignore the demographics of disease, or drug companies choose to research and develop certain classes of drugs instead of others. AIDS/HIV paddles, cycle tours, etc. Raise money for the Homeless, food banks, Habitat for Humanity, Jerry's Kids, etc. etc. etc. all have their political elements and all connect to controversy. Just because I or you don't recognize or validate the controversial aspects, or if we subject them to differing measuring sticks, doesn't mean they don't exist. My point is, who gets to decide what qualifies as 'political'? Each of us is allowed to fume, quietly or otherwise, about any number of issues that are raised on this list. When we post our invitations or our responses, we hopefully try to self-govern and weigh the signal to noise ratio before hitting the send key. The Portland event relates to the list because it involves paddling. The invitation would best be made in ways that acknowledge the controversial nature of the event as well as its connection to the list. If the invitation is made to inform those who might be so inclined, and not to promote or preach a narrow politic, then it seems fair to post to the list...along with any other similar types of notices and invitations. I'd encourage those who post such invitations to limit the post to announcing the event (who what where when) and any relevant sponsorships such that those reading can quickly decide to hit delete, or email off list a reply requesting additional information. Will Jennings Lecturer, Rhetoric Department 158 English-Philosophy Bldg. University of Iowa Iowa City, Iowa 52242 william-jennings_at_uiowa.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "William Jennings" <will_at_bigwoodenradio.com> > that appear far less contentious. Fund-raising events to fight breast > cancer or other illnesses are > political when governments ignore the demographics of disease, or drug > companies > choose to research and develop certain classes of drugs instead of > others. > AIDS/HIV paddles, cycle tours, etc. Raise money for the Homeless, food > banks, > Habitat for Humanity, Jerry's Kids, etc. etc. etc. all have their > political elements > and all connect to controversy. Just because I or you don't recognize > or validate > the controversial aspects, or if we subject them to differing measuring > sticks, > doesn't mean they don't exist. My point is, who gets to decide what > qualifies as 'political'? I am not sure I agree. Perhaps it is the list of examples you give. Who would want to pro breast cancer or against seeking a cure or prevention of it. Who would want to ignore the plight of the homeless? Or closer to home, paddles for environmental issues or paddling to secure or save launch sites. Or memorial paddles such as the memorial day ones a few years ago. These are not political because there are not sides to take regarding the underlying purpose of the paddle except as a stretch. A paddling trip calls attention to such just causes or events. One crosses the line into _political_ issues when people of good conscious may differ and differ strongly and when the paddle is to promote one side or the other. Abortion vs. right to life is one to come to mind. Protest to stop government action such as waging war vs. supporting such action is one currently on the table. Feelings run real strongly on both sides of such issues. I could be wrong but I don't recall any events in other venues of this nature, i.e. are there roadrunner races to promote right to life or bike rides for supporting working only through the UN. I guess another test is would your calling for a paddle trip be for something that would offend or upset others on the list. Believe me, an anti-war protest paddle is upsetting to a sufficient number of us on the list that it should give one pause to announce or organize it. Obviously this are all unchartered waters in a sense. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:01 PM 3/14/2003 -0800, Melissa Reese wrote: ><snip a bunch> >I can paddle for peace, and you can paddle for war if you wish. At the >end of the day, we can break bread together and hope for the >best...come what may. > >-- >Melissa >*************************************************************************** Melissa, With all due respect (and I mean that with all sincerity) this is exactly where we part company. Except for the breaking bread at the end of the day part. ;-) Nobody I know, that is in a reasonably sane state of mind, would "paddle for war", particularly those of us who have been involved in them. That is the sort of rhetoric that the peace marchers and "paddlers" would like the uninformed to believe, and you have just propagated that belief with your post as well. We may paddle to support our troops and some may even paddle to promote the current administration's agenda, but not for war. As been said here a couple of times, the paddle that was promoted isn't a paddle event, it is an anti-war protest, part of which may take place in kayaks. Rhetoric has it's place, but I certainly don't believe paddlewise is the appropriate forum. Good paddling to ya in any event. ;-) Dave G. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I have to disagree with you on this one. IMHO, politics of any kind do not > belong on the list. > > There are many other ways to make one's voice heard concerning > politics---lets keep it out of paddling and Paddlewise. Steve, though we've never met face-to-face, I read your posts and have only respect for you (can you hear the sucking up noise?), so please keep that in mind when I say that I'm suddenly compelled to say "Whoa, what just a minute". So... Whoa, wait just a minute. "Politics of any kind?" Does that mean no more posts about Personal Watercraft laws, State Kayak registration laws, National Park Service fees, Leave No Trace laws, PFD requirements and a host of other things we discuss on a very regular basis? Are those not Political issues too? And, it's not just the Government that is "political". How about the whole Sponsoons thing - was that not political? What about Outfitters and their responsibilities or lack of it in sending new boaters out with all the proper gear and/or training - isn't that political? There is no shortage of "political" on Paddlewise - the list goes on, but I won't attempt to list them all. If there was "no political", would Paddlewise survive on just the "other" topics? I don't know, and I don't care to find out. So, where do you draw the line? The litmus test that Kirk chose to use was whether or not it involved actual paddling. I'll be darned if I can think of a better litmus test than that - at least for a Paddling discussion forum. Mind you, I'm not saying we all have to agree with each political post (thank you vets, for giving me that privilege), and many topics will certainly stir up quite a debate on this forum. But, if it involves paddling, how can it be taboo for Paddlewise? Unpleasant or distasteful at times - yes. Angering and upsetting at times - yes. Taboo and off limits - no. Just MHO. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com > "Politics of any kind?" Does that mean no more posts about Personal > Watercraft laws, State Kayak registration laws, National Park Service > fees, Leave No Trace laws, PFD requirements and a host of other things > we discuss on a very regular basis? Are those not Political issues too? These are regulatory issues that affect us directly as paddlers. So therefore definitely are fodder for writing petitions, encouraging email campaigns and paddle-ins, etc. On some of these you would get some argument or differences in points of view. For instance some people would want NPS fees, others not. But they are not world scale issues like abortion and right to life where very heavy battlelines have been drawn and people on this list likely are strongly in favor of one or the other. The point is why spill these over into PaddleWise or announce trips that are just an excuse to promote a position on one of these world scale issues. > > And, it's not just the Government that is "political". How about the > whole Sponsoons thing - was that not political? What about Outfitters > and their responsibilities or lack of it in sending new boaters out with > all the proper gear and/or training - isn't that political? There is no > shortage of "political" on Paddlewise - the list goes on, but I won't > attempt to list them all. Again, very paddle centered. They are political in that they involve policy. > > If there was "no political", would Paddlewise survive on just the > "other" topics? I don't know, and I don't care to find out. So, where > do you draw the line? The litmus test that Kirk chose to use was > whether or not it involved actual paddling. I'll be darned if I can > think of a better litmus test than that - at least for a Paddling > discussion forum. The Portland Peace paddle is not a paddle trip. It is a protest that happens to be in boats. People who march for peace or for right to life are not taking a walk...they are walking to protest. Those issues are contentious ones with divisive potential to get people fuming on one side or the other. > > Mind you, I'm not saying we all have to agree with each political post > (thank you vets, for giving me that privilege), and many topics will > certainly stir up quite a debate on this forum. But, if it involves > paddling, how can it be taboo for Paddlewise? Unpleasant or distasteful > at times - yes. Angering and upsetting at times - yes. Taboo and off > limits - no. My feeling is that if it is a policy issue involving kayaking like jet skiis, responsibility of paddle shops, etc. then certainly it fits in here. Other stuff is iffy. BUT people are certainly free to vent what they want to talk about or solicit/march/petition/paddle about. My only concern is it wise and should we being doing it here on PaddleWise. best, ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> > Steve, though we've never met face-to-face, I read your posts and have > only respect for you (can you hear the sucking up noise?), so please > keep that in mind when I say that I'm suddenly compelled to say "Whoa, > what just a minute". So... Whoa, wait just a minute. > > "Politics of any kind?" Does that mean no more posts about Personal > Watercraft laws, State Kayak registration laws, National Park Service > fees, Leave No Trace laws, PFD requirements and a host of other things > we discuss on a very regular basis? Are those not Political issues too? > > And, it's not just the Government that is "political". How about the > whole Sponsoons thing - was that not political?............ Rick, It's time for me to suck up a little too. ;-) I have also read your posts and respect both you and your opinions. I disagree with your examples of political though. I think Ralph Diaz' post gives us the correct definition of what we should avoid. "One crosses the line into _political_ issues when people of good conscious may differ and differ strongly and when the paddle is to promote one side or the other. Abortion vs. right to life is one to come to mind. Protest to stop government action such as waging war vs. supporting such action is one currently on the table. Feelings run real strongly on both sides of such issues." If it hadn't been for the way Timmy went off the deep end about the spons**ns, it would have been a legitimate topic of conversation. The post about the Peace Paddle, IMHO was about a political event and the paddling was incidental to it. That type of thing (either pro or con attacking Iraq) should be left to other forums. Wearing of PFD's, outfitters who don't tell people about the risks or required gear, registration laws--those are all good topics to discuss. My views on this whole mess are the same as my views about Vietnam Vets. Let's support the men and women in uniform and talk to your congressmen and senators concerning your political views. My representatives have been informed as to my views--the Paddlewise community has not, because frankly my political views are mine and don't have a thing to do with paddling. Hoping to meet you in person some day, Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "ralph diaz" <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> <snip some interesting thoughts> > I guess another test is would your calling for a paddle trip be for > something that would offend or upset others on the list. Believe me, an > anti-war protest paddle is upsetting to a sufficient number of us on the > list that it should give one pause to announce or organize it. > > Obviously this are all unchartered waters in a sense. Actually, not exactly. Remember Michael Kundu, Project Sea Wolf, and the Makah tribe hunting whales? (tires me just thinking about it 8-} And I bet I just hit all kinds of filters :-)))) I had a paddler once ask about announcing a trip for "queer paddlers." I told him I had no objection to that but I thought his use of the word "queer" would likely backfire (I know it is commonly used in the gay community but most of the population views it as hate-speech, or did back then). I cautioned him that there might be possible fall-out from the use of that word and to also be prepared for negative reaction to an announcement about a gay-only trip. He never announced it. I believe he knew I would have gotten lots of heat, too, and I think he kindly decided to spare me that. It's a tough call to make. Glad it's Kirk and not me :-) (great job you are doing, btw, Kirk) Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Melissa Reese <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net> > While it's certainly within your rights to be upset with whatever > upsets you (in this case, the current anti-war movement), is it really > reasonable to ask people who feel differently to consider not > announcing a "peace paddle"...just because the concept is upsetting to > you? Some of the concern comes in anticipation of the posts following the initial message. Some folks were set on edge by insulting posts following Doug's post on collateral damage. If folks want to be able to posts trips for controversial events, then *all* need to behave responsibly on follow-up posts and respect the feelings of those who make up the "other side" as well as the original post showing respect for opposing views in making its announcement. jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Melissa Reese" <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net> > People announce "Christmas carol" paddles on this list each year. > Should non-Christians on the list feel offended or upset by these? Or > object to their announcements here? How about a Wicca sponsored > "Spring Equinox" paddle event? (haven't heard of one, but that doesn't > mean they can't or don't happen). After all, religious beliefs can be > at least as polarizing as political ideologies and feelings about > current events. I have participated as a kayaker in several non-Christian religious ceremonies involving being on the water. I could be naive but I can't imagine anyone being polarized by any of them. One was the Jewish ceremony Taleesh (spelling?) in which participants toss bread on the waters to cast away sins. Another was a Buddhist ceremony involving floating lanterns to remember the dead particularly Japanese and other Buddhists who died in the World Trade Center. Religious and moving, yes. Offensive or contraversial, no. I also have been in on a blessing of the fleet in NYC harbor in which clerics of four different faiths stood on the deck of an old fireboat and blessed our kayaks as we paddled by. There were no causes being pushed or positions taken with any of these ceremonies. These were all in good faith (no pun intended) and not against anything or for anything. The Buddhists were very pleased that kayakers were willing to help take out the candle lanterns to let them float freely. In the ceremony blessing the fleet a strong ecumenical feeling prevailed among the priests, ministers and rabbis. Even a shared comical moment. After the kayakers had all past for the blessing of their boats, one paddler came rushing up a bit late. The Catholic priest, seeing the guy's very Irish looking face, said to the other clerics. "I'll take this one, boys. He looks like one of mine." :-) > > Can a "Peace Paddle" really be more objectionable than a "Memorial Day > paddle"? Don't we all want peace? If you are asking my opinion: I think Memorial Day paddles are purer peace paddles than Peace Paddles; they remember the price paid for peace and freedom; they don't attack anyone or take sides. Yes, of course, we all want peace. > I can paddle for peace, and you can paddle for war if you wish. I don't know of a single person who would paddle for war; and, if I did know of such a person, I would not paddle with them. How about a St. Patrick's Day Paddle to celebrate his driving Greenland paddles out of Ireland...or was it snakes? I know it was something long and skinny. :-) ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This has been a good exchange. Ralph Diaz made some convincing arguments that altered my point of view. As did others. However, I think I've seen enough, and I think Kirk has plenty of guidance via the list. May I suggest the discussion of what is "political" be continued as a dialog with the list administrator? I'd rather see another "rudder" vs "no-rudder" debate! [grin] -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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