>If it is not possible to teach the casual paddler how to be safe, maybe something should be done to make the boats themselves safer. Our "average" sea kayak is a relatively safe boat, yet there are still folks who have a hard time performing rescues in them. We're hoping to educate a less-fit, less-experienced boater to perform a rescue in a boat less optimized for self rescue--a boater who has no notion of ever tipping over in the first place? Ignorance is not stupidity. The guy out fishing may be ignorant of what he faces. I would hesitate to say he is stupid because he is ignorant. Some things just don't occur to people. We paddled for 15 years in the canoe out bird watching. We did it in the usual birding outfit. We did it all year round. It never occurred to us what we were doing was at all risky. The only time we ever fell out was when we were playing around in nice, warm water. I started out in our Bayou, no flotation, in January. Nice 50 something day. Water is probably 40 something. I knew it was cold but it never occurred to me I might tip over. Paddle out on the Potomac. Paddled back. No big deal. Then I went to buy a boat and had to rent a wet suit to try the boat. Bought the boat and the wet suit. I THOUGHT I was safe because the shop seemed to feel comfortable sending people out in wet suits in Jan/Feb around DC. I'm REALLY glad I found out better before I took that Dec. swim in the Potomac. I had on a dry suit by then. Ignorance IS curable. I don't think stupidity was what Nick was addressing. We do face a real issue. I know I don't want to plaster those ugly stickers all over my boats. Most of us don't mind a chance to show off what we know, we just don't want to HAVE TO do it nor pay for it. If we can avoid that fate by educating the casual paddler, great. But . . . Our club and others in the Baltimore/DC area offer tons of informational/skills opportunities for area paddlers. CPA is the safety Nazi of the Chesapeake Bay, according to some. But, we really don't offer much for the casual paddler in the Kiwi paddling up the Potomac River. That isn't what we do. Do you? Most of the rec paddlers would bet money that their boat won't sink. They don't know that bow or stern or even the coaming sticking out of the water is not very useful. You have to PROVE to them the boat will go over/scuttle. You have to PROVE to them that all that stability is fun to surf but won't keep them going straight in wind and waves and will just add to the chance of going over in high water. All doubting Thomases. The people selling the boats think they know what they are talking about. I've been bold enough to butt into a conversation or two about boats in stores. The clerks may not like it but some things are just too wrong to tell people. Misinformation is contagious. They do want to learn and be safe. I have had several people come to me to learn rescues in their rec boats at the pool. I'm stumped. I loan them my extra paddle floats, show them the stirrups, talk them through their attempts and feel helpless as they struggle to do what I can't do. They succeed many times. I'm jealous but I'll just have to loose weight if I plan to be successful :< I don't paddle our rec boat except under the most controlled and safe conditions just because I can't self-rescue in it. A reenter and roll with a paddle float is the only thing that works. Then I'm really swamped. It takes FOREVER to pump out that water. If I can't do it for myself, how can I offer help to other middle aged, over weight, out of shape people looking for a way to get out on the water? Who do I send them to? Is there really a way to help them except the tell them there is a risk and they are now seeing they can get out but not in? What SHOULD we tell rec boat paddlers, if we are going to take that job on? I tell them you have seen the problem. You have to judge for yourself if you are safe if you can't get back into your boat. Adopt the BCU philosophy of never paddle alone. Learn assisted rescues. Here is the information on cold water. Take a swim with your PFD so you'll know how far you can swim with it on. Don't even think of taking it off, no matter how hard it is to swim with it on. Learn to use your paddle to swim. It's even fun. Carry a pump and paddle float for just in case. The pump is a great squirt-gun. At least the boats like the Carolina, which newbie rollers keep bringing to the pool to learn to roll in, can be used for a paddle-float rescues. I had no idea what to tell the 190 lb guy with the Kiwi, except he is too big for that boat. That is why it feels tippy. I have another fellow and his wife coming to the pool tomorrow. I'm bringing my plastic, sea kayak to teach them the basics of the assisted rescues. I wonder if I can get one of them to stand up in their boat to prove it works. It's flat enough <G>. The bottom line is that they do want to learn but what resources are really out there? I catch the requests because I coordinate the pool sessions for the club. But we really don't do rec boats. I don't know anyone who does. We won't even let them paddle with us because they have to have flotation and USE a skirt while paddling on club trips. Heck, a skirt won't fit most of them. Our Bayou can take a skirt and we did put the flotation in it but we are not the usual. I had to PROVE to my S.O. that we could sink the boat to get that flotation put in the boat. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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