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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] wing theory (now: Paddle advice for the wife)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 21:35:23 -0700
I think bent shafts are over-rated. If you don't grip the paddle tightly and
don't bend your wrists the contorted shaft paddles only offer disadvantages
and I wouldn't recommend them for feathered paddlers because they tend to
pry one hand open on the push side of your non-feathering hand. If you
insist on persisting in the folly of stressing your wrists by gripping the
paddle too tightly they might help take some of the bend out of your wrists
while they are under a load. I also find them limiting for moving my hands
further apart or further to one side of the paddle when I like.

I'm 6'1" and have very long "ape" arms and a long back. I like shorter
paddles (mostly I use a 220 and have flirted a bit with 215 lately) but I'd
be careful of going less than 210cm for a sea paddle except for a very small
person in a narrow small kayak. You might find the stroke rate uncomfortably
(uncoordinatedly?) high when moving fast even if the blades are short enough
and shaped well enough to still clear the hull easily without constantly
banging the boat at the start of the stroke.

Matt Broze
www.marinerkayaks.com

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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle advice for the wife) (was wing theory)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 12:49:53 -0400
On 6 Jun 2003 at 21:35, Matt Broze wrote:

> I think bent shafts are over-rated. 

I've heard that from a lot of paddlers, but every one of them doesn't 
need a bent shaft.  If you don't need one, you'll likely only see its 
cons.

I have chronic joint problems - can't run or ride a bike, took two 
weeks for my right wrist to recover from making a Greenland style 
paddle (GP) three weeks ago (thumb joint still irritated), always use 
a keyboard wrist support etc.  I certainly can feel the difference 
between a straight shaft and a bent shaft.  There's no way I'll use a 
straight shaft Euro when sea kayaking.  I did use a straight shaft WW 
paddle a month ago in a downriver event and drifted with the current 
quite frequently.  I was sore at the end of the two hours.

Last summer I used a GP for the first six days of a week-long trip.  
The GP, with a narrower grip position, keeps my wrists straight and 
is gentle on the joints.  On the last day, I pulled the bent shaft 
off the rear deck and even then I could feel the difference.

My advice is based on someone wanting a lower stress approach to 
paddling.  If that isn't you, then the bant shaft has fewer 
advantages.

> paddlers because they tend to pry one hand open on the push side of
> your non-feathering hand. 

I always open my hands on both sides, so I've never noticed such a 
thing.  If you set the feather to the correct angle for your stroke, 
there's no need to have a control hand.

> I also find them limiting for moving my hands further apart or
> further to one side of the paddle when I like.

That's the most frustrating thing, especially if you've become 
accustomed to sliding and extended stroke techniques with a GP.  You 
only get a couple of inches range of motion on the bent part of the 
shaft.  However, the drip ring is more of an obstruction when sliding 
the hand to the root of the blade.

Mike

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From: Matt <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle advice for the wife) (was wing theory)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:47:17 -0400
I wrote:
> paddlers because they tend to pry one hand open on the push side of 
> your non-feathering hand.

Mike responded:
>>>>>>>I always open my hands on both sides, so I've never noticed such a 
thing.  If you set the feather to the correct angle for your stroke, 
there's no need to have a control hand.<<<<<<<<<

Just where was it that I wrote I had a "control hand" again. I think you are
misinterpreting what I wrote. In fact, I was very careful to word that
sentence without using "control hand" because I wanted to point out which
side had the problem without implying there needed to be a control hand. It
doesn't matter what feather you use, you don't need a "control hand" (the
"correct angle" for my stroke might work fine in calm conditions but is hell
into headwinds). I use 75 degrees of feather because much shallower feathers
start climbing and diving going into strong winds. I have advocated
controlling the paddle with the hand nearest the blade in the water for
about 20 years now. George Gronseth (who prefers unfeathered) even agree on
this and I now call it "Low hand control". For unfeathered paddlers it
avoids the energy wasting elbow lift "hook" style stroke caused by having to
adjust for the roughly 45 degree rotation of the paddle caused by just
lifting the hand for the next stroke if you don't release your grip on the
"high" hand. Of course with a low Eskimo style stroke this is less
necessary. 

I open my hand on the push side too but on one side the bent shaft angles
downward from the thumb on the push side (and is quite comfortable since
that what my hand would prefer to do), but the other side pries the outside
edge of my hand upwards and pushes my thumb downwards even though I have my
hand open and my pointing fingers forward. This forces my wrist to twist or
my elbow to swing up and out.

jwd_at_acm.org seemed to question the ability to do an Eskimo stroke with a
Euro paddle. He asked:
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Epic Paddles

On Sat, Jun 07, 2003 at 08:01:03PM -0400, Nick Schade wrote:

> The best solution for flutter I have heard widely talked about is the
> "canted" stroke advocated by some Greenland style paddlers. This 
> technique seems to automatically eliminate flutter, and when I look at 
> my own stroke with a Euro paddle I see that it is "canted" even though 
> I never consciously incorporated the technique.

Euro paddle?<<<<<<<<<,

Last fall after a similar discussion, and a question from Nick about why a
Euro paddle couldn't also use a tilt blade Eskimo style stroke, I tried the
blade angled top forward, Eskimo stroke, for some time with my short wide
Euro (75 degree feather) blades and it worked just fine. I added a new
stroke to my quiver to switch off too if I get tired. Thanks Nick. The wing
stroke is also a canted stroke, but to the side. The Eskimo canted stroke
has one flutter, when the blade direction goes from down to up. (Note: this
is not a criticism, just an observation.

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com



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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle advice for the wife) (was wing theory)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 01:04:59 -0400
On 9 Jun 2003 at 19:47, Matt wrote:

> I wrote:
> > > paddlers because they tend to pry one hand open on the push side of
> > > your non-feathering hand.
> 
> Mike responded:
> >I always open my hands on both sides, so I've never noticed
> >such a thing.  If you set the feather to the correct angle for your stroke,
> > there's no need to have a control hand.<<<<<<<<<
> 
> Just where was it that I wrote I had a "control hand" again. I think
> you are misinterpreting what I wrote.

Well I couldn't figure out what you meant by "non-feathering hand".  
Even with your explanation below, the above sentence isn't clear. 

> I open my hand on the push side too but on one side the bent shaft
> angles downward from the thumb on the push side (and is quite
> comfortable since that what my hand would prefer to do), but the other
> side pries the outside edge of my hand upwards and pushes my thumb
> downwards even though I have my hand open and my pointing fingers
> forward. This forces my wrist to twist or my elbow to swing up and
> out.

I can't reproduce this with my paddle at the angles I use, however, 
when I open it up to 75 degrees or more I start to see your problem.  
We don't get those kinds of Pacific winds here on the Great Lakes 
very often and when we do, I switch to my storm paddle, so the 
feather angle isn't an issue for me.  If the tool ain't right, change 
the tool :-)

Mike

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