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From: Strosaker <strosaker_at_cox.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Kevlar vs. Full Carbon Fiber?
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:33:50 -0700
Paddlewisers,

At the Southwest Kayak Symposium in San Diego last weekend, I heard a
representative from a kayak manufacturer say that his company is going away
from the Kevlar lay-up and is going to full carbon fiber instead. He
explained that doing the full carbon fiber lay-up at the same weight as a
regular kayak makes the hull very strong and stood on a kayak deck to
demonstrate.

The thick full carbon fiber lay-up sounds good, but I am wondering about
impact resistance in expedition and surf settings. I would like to hear some
opinions and explanations about which is better, the usual Kelvar lay-up or
full carbon fiber?

Duane Strosaker
Southern California


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From: Carey Parks <cparks_at_fuse.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kevlar vs. Full Carbon Fiber?
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:23:47 -0400
Well, I don't have kayak specific information, but I can tell you that the
Champ Cars (a la Rahal, Andretti et al) are made of carbon fiber and use
kevlar only in a little area where the transponder rides because the carbon
goofs up the RF. That tells me they would rather be riding in carbon when
they run into the concrete wall at 100 mph and up. I'd think the beach
wouldn't be a problem.



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From: <sildriel_at_ciateq.net.mx>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kevlar vs. Full Carbon Fiber?
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:36:10 -0500
Mensaje citado por Carey Parks <cparks_at_fuse.net>:

> Well, I don't have kayak specific information, but I can tell you that the
> Champ Cars (a la Rahal, Andretti et al) are made of carbon fiber and use
> kevlar only in a little area where the transponder rides because the carbon
> goofs up the RF. That tells me they would rather be riding in carbon when
> they run into the concrete wall at 100 mph and up. I'd think the beach
> wouldn't be a problem.

I doubt that the carbon fiber aesthetic and hydrodynamic cover has anything to 
do in reducing the impact against a concrete wall at 100 mph. The steel and 
special materials frames, shock absorvers, etc. are the parts that hold the 
car, and keep the cockpit intact. 

Carbon fiber does reduce the weight, very important for acceleration and fuel 
saving. Nothing else from my point of view. It would be a bad advise to build 
the fenders and motor cover of such a heavy and thick carbonglass that it 
would give mechanical protection. The car would be extremely heavy, even in 
carbon fibers.

Best Regards,

Rafael
www.mayanseas.com

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From: Steve Brown <steve_at_brown-web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kevlar vs. Full Carbon Fiber?
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 22:31:44 -0700 (PDT)
My CF paddle blades get unbelievable abuse and never seem to break or chip. They are gradually wearing away at the tip, but I'll tire of the paddle before the wear becomes serious. I did break a small dia shaft once, but I think that was a CF/glass blend. CF is also used in military and aerospace applications where strength is critical
Therefore, I think a CF kayak made as heavy as a glass one would be nearly indistructable. If I could afford it, I'd buy one and try it out :-).
 
What manufacturer was it?

Strosaker <strosaker_at_cox.net> wrote:

>At the Southwest Kayak Symposium in San Diego last weekend, I heard a
>representative from a kayak manufacturer say that his company is going away
>from the Kevlar lay-up and is going to full carbon fiber instead. He
>explained that doing the full carbon fiber lay-up at the same weight as a
>regular kayak makes the hull very strong and stood on a kayak deck to
>demonstrate.
>
>The thick full carbon fiber lay-up sounds good, but I am wondering about
>impact resistance in expedition and surf settings. I would like to hear some
>opinions and explanations about which is better, the usual Kelvar lay-up or
>full carbon fiber?

Steve Brown

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From: Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kevlar vs. Full Carbon Fiber?
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 11:25:21 -0400
Steve Brown wrote:
> My CF paddle blades get unbelievable abuse and never seem to break or
> chip. They are gradually wearing away at the tip, but I'll tire of
> the paddle before the wear becomes serious. I did break a small dia
> shaft once, but I think that was a CF/glass blend. 

When pure CF shafts break, they tend to do so catastrophically. I saw a 
Canadian slalom paddler break a paddle in half catching an eddy on the 
Ocoee River. The shaft looked like it had been hacksawed in two. Of 
course, that was a racing layup, so perhaps not as robust as one would 
use for cruising.

Whetstone (RIP) put a layer of glass inside their carbon paddles to give 
them a little more resilience.

-- 
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

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From: Steve Brown <steve_at_brown-web.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kevlar vs. Full Carbon Fiber?
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:43:18 -0700
It was a whetstone paddle and it broke virtually as you describe. I'm
still using a whetstone paddle, but now with the fatter WW shaft. Seems
ok so far, but I'm not sure any paddle would survive what I did to the
first one.

             Steve Brown


When pure CF shafts break, they tend to do so catastrophically. I saw a 
Canadian slalom paddler break a paddle in half catching an eddy on the 
Ocoee River. The shaft looked like it had been hacksawed in two. Of 
course, that was a racing layup, so perhaps not as robust as one would 
use for cruising.

Whetstone (RIP) put a layer of glass inside their carbon paddles to give

them a little more resilience.

-- 
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA




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From: Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kevlar vs. Full Carbon Fiber?
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:06:24 -0400
Carbon fiber is very strong with static loads but is not very good in 
impact. While race cars use a lot of carbon fiber they use it 
differently than you want for a kayak. Race cars are not intended to 
survive impacts fully intact. Part of what they want is for the 
construction to fail in such a way that it absorbs a lot of energy 
before it gets to the driver. If it breaks catastrophically that is OK, 
so long as by the time the impact gets to the driver most of the energy 
is absorbed.
Carbon fiber is used a lot in race kayaks. A Van Dusen sprint boat 
built of pre-preg carbon fiber and Nomex core weights about 14 lbs. 
They are quite strong for the loads they are designed to take, but you 
could probably put a pencil through them without to much effort.
You can build up carbon fiber to be very strong, but enough carbon to 
give good impact resistance for a boat would be quite pricey. It is 
better to mix some other materials in to increase the impact resistance.

On Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 07:33  PM, Strosaker wrote:
>
> The thick full carbon fiber lay-up sounds good, but I am wondering 
> about
> impact resistance in expedition and surf settings. I would like to 
> hear some
> opinions and explanations about which is better, the usual Kelvar 
> lay-up or
> full carbon fiber?
>
Nick Schade

Guillemot Kayaks
824 Thompson St
Glastonbury, CT 06033
USA
Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/

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From: Simeon Tauber <simeon_at_simplymacintosh.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kevlar vs. Full Carbon Fiber?
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:39:49 -0700
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e.  headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.]

Y'all....

I just getting ready to place an order for a new Looksha 4, with their  
new Carbon Lay-up.....

It's my understanding from Necky that these boats are NOT pure  
carbon-fiber, but rather they are using Carbon Fiber where they  
traditionally used Kevlar; in addition, they are using some type of  
infusion method to manage some of the issues raised here, like impact  
resistance; apparently, a similar technology is used for aircraft, and  
is quite durable.....

So as Necky goes high tech, I wonder how my new boat will behave when  
it goes airborne in the surf!!!!

simeon

On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 02:06 PM, Nick Schade wrote:

> Carbon fiber is very strong with static loads but is not very good in  
> impact.<snip>
>
> On Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 07:33  PM, Strosaker wrote:
>>
>> The thick full carbon fiber lay-up sounds good, but I am wondering  
>> about
>> impact resistance in expedition and surf settings.
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From: Steve Brown <steve_at_brown-web.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kevlar vs. Full Carbon Fiber?
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:32:44 -0700
I heard second (or third) hand that Necky made Ed Gillett's Tesla from a
super duty all CF lay-up. I emailed Necky about it months ago, but they
never responded. Maybe they were saving the information for a product
release, or maybe they checked my credit and found that I couldn't afford
one anyway.

The question I would like to hear answered is this: If you made a CF boat
that weighed as much as glass, would it be significantly stronger than
glass?

Any mechanical engineers out there that have actually done the analysis or
boat builders who have actually tried it?

Steve Brown
 

-----Original Message-----

Y'all....

I just getting ready to place an order for a new Looksha 4, with their  
new Carbon Lay-up.....

It's my understanding from Necky that these boats are NOT pure  
carbon-fiber, but rather they are using Carbon Fiber where they  
traditionally used Kevlar; 

simeon




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From: PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>
subject: [Paddlewise] Carbon Fiber Paddles and Lightning?
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:16:27 +1000
G'Day,

Its the stormy season again in Sydney.

Can anyone tell me if there is any truth to the story I hear over and over
again that carbon paddles attract lightning more than fiberglass? I've never
understood how this can be so as I shouldn't have thoght the carbon fibres
formed a continuous conducting path.

It seems to me one needn't worry about the paddle in a storm. The paddle
will be OK because the human body is much more conductive and more likely to
attract lightning.

But I'ld be interested to hear reasons why I might be wrong.

All the best, PeterO.




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