I would appreciate some thoughts on the following situation (long-range planning for 2005). A group of paddlers, some novices, some experienced, will do a multi-day cold water trip. At all times the paddlers will be in a large group, relatively close to shore, and in fairly protected waters. It seems easy and conservative to insist that everyone wear a dry suit or a wet suit (thickness to be determined). I will be wearing a tuiliq or a dry-suit, but as a gore-tex user, I don't know how uncomfortable other paddlers will get in wet suits, especially if they use thicker suits more appropriate for prolonged immersion. I can imagine people trying to compromise, and unzipping the garments, or just stopping wearing the wet suits. How have others dealt with this type of situation? (I know double kayaks are sometimes the way to cope, but assume that everyone will be in a single.) Are different designs (e.g., thinner suits for quick retrieval rather than prolonged immersion, short-style suits, triathlon suits, etc.) a solution? Thanks. Tom Joyce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joyce Family wrote: > > I would appreciate some thoughts on the following situation (long-range > planning for 2005). A group of paddlers, some novices, some experienced, will > do a multi-day cold water trip. At all times the paddlers will be in a large > group, relatively close to shore, and in fairly protected waters. I'd like to answer with a summary of the argument I put up for my club, considering safety. When you take a look at the safety-philosofy in oil refineries, nuclear plants, mountain climbers and cars, you'll notice that safety consists of primary safety and backups, sometimes layer upon layer of backups. Take driving a car for instance: - Your car gets regular checkups, making sure steering, brakes, lights and tires are in good shape. You are expected to have a drivers license and abide traffic rules, so that accidents become highly unlikely. However, if you DO get an accident: - Seatbelts, airbags and cardesign will minimize the risk of physical trauma. However, if you DO suffer injuries: - A team of trained professionals (police, ambulance, fire department, hospitals) will be standing by to prevent a fatality. In this description a car has three levels of safety. In fact, it has more. You have to drop through all levels to suffer a fatal accident. In oil refineries and nuclear plants you'll find many more levels, in some high-risk sports less. Now, how many levels will your trip have? If somebody tips over, can he be rescued? If the rescue fails, does the victim have a chance to make it to shore? If not, will external help be available? If not... I will not answer these questions for you. I will not tell you how many levels of safety you need: That's up to you and your group. I don't know if you're a suicide squadron or a group of people with partners and children, who you owe responsibility. Make sure you know the risks. Know the risks, signs and treatment of hypothermia. Don't think paddling in a group makes you safe: It only makes you safe if your fellows know what to do in an emergency. Note that, unlike in a car accident where the rescue team does not expect any cooperation from your side, in a paddling rescue the victim is supposed to take an active part in a rescue. Have a good trip, Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One option I would consider: take this group swimming sometime in water temps similar to the ones you'll encounter. Better yet, plan a paddle in cold water and do rescue practice. Have some of the folks (draw straws?) come dressed without proper cold water gear. Give them a taste of what could happen. OF COURSE....I'm saying this with the caveat that you do this in protected waters and have an appropriate support boat (power boat) along with appropriate gear and swimmers dressed appropriately. Seems like a lot of fussing to set this up but I'm guessing that following this, people will CHOOSE to equip themselves rather than being forced by someone deemed "over the top about safety". *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joyce Family" <tfj4_at_comcast.net> wrote: >> A group of paddlers, some novices, some experienced, will do a multi-day cold water trip. At all times the paddlers will be in a large group, relatively close to shore, and in fairly protected waters. It seems easy and conservative to insist that everyone wear a dry suit or a wet suit (thickness to be determined). [snip] I can imagine people trying to compromise, and unzipping the garments, or just stopping wearing the wet suits. How have others dealt with this type of situation? >> Tom, two things: 1. I think you may need to deal with the differences in skill level first before you get down to the detail of which garments folks wear. Others have edged in this direction, but perhaps making sure that everyone has had some time doing self-rescue practice in cold water, and everyone has done the swim test in their paddling outfit in similarly cold water. I don't think it works well in an all-comers group such as you describe to just mandate a particular immersion protection garment/regime without good preparation otherwise. 2. How about some more detail on how protected, and how cold your conditions will be? There are more variables here, such as whether or not you will be pushed to make miles in marginal conditions, how big is the group, how many are true novices, and so forth. As a partial cure, could be using a guide service could solve some of the imponderables. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here's an interesting one for you all to ponder. A proposal to dredge bottom sand from the Wild and Scenic portion of the Rogue River for the easier passage of jetboat tours has surfaced once again. Have you ever been "just missed" by one of these 500 hp 30 passenger boats in a kayak? For several years in a row, Grants Pass Jetboats (dba Hellgate Jetboat Excursions) has applied to dredge the Rogue River. After withdrawing its request last year, the jetboat company has again filed formal requests with the Oregon DEQ and the Army Corps of Engineers, to complete dredging operations at 5 locations in the Recreational Section of the Rogue River downstream from Grants Pass. If granted, the new permit would be valid for 5 years. The request must be approved by the Oregon DEQ prior to being considered by the Corps of Engineers. Again the time period to send in comments is quite short. Comments to both agencies must be received by March 30. E-mail me if you need additional info on where to send comments, both pro and con. cheers, Tom Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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