[Paddlewise] Sliding Seat Bashing and witness badgering (previously incorrectly re-titled by the badgerer to: RE:sliding seat failure--from Re:sliding seat issues)

From: Doug Lloyd <dalloyd_at_telus.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:08:47 -0700
Matt said (huge snip):
>According to someone on this list, Steve has developed or provides a skeg
clearing tool made from a butter knife (if I'm recalling correctly).
Therefore, isn't that good evidence he is well aware that skegs on his
kayaks can jam. How can he sell a kayak, in good conscience, where the skeg
might jam (or with someone else we could use--the rudder might break) and
make that kayak more difficult to control as a result.<

Isn't this approximately where the thread got started?  :-)  (Hey Matt,
congratulations on the longest subject line I think I've ever seen; just
shows how passionate you are about these things, and how strongly you feel
about defending your product development, which we all know you have thought
through thoroughly over the years -- so, all good stuff).

Interestingly, we had a real problem on our Nootka Sound trip with one boat
in particular (a large British heavy with the new skeg-slide control). While
the older bungee corded "spring-loaded" systems clogs with grit and sand as
much as the newer cable-activated push systems (as far as the fin in the box
area is concerned), the newer system proved much more fussy to field repair
(twice on this trip). Also interestingly, the owner of the boat in question
(who doesn't mind this being mentioned) was very concerned about returning
to the Sound from the outside as lack of a working skeg would mean this
particular kayak design would become almost unmanageable. Scott first
mentioned this to the list and me back at the start of the thread, now I
understand what he was highlighting.

Funnily enough, the guy in the Mariner II just laughed, slid his seat a bit,
leaned down-slope, and shot off on every wind wave. I've never seen the
Mariner II in a seaway, so was very impressed. The only other boat I saw on
the trip (different group) was an Nigel Dennis Explorer  _with no skeg_,
similar to the Chris Duff setup, where no mechanical devices/lack of storage
issues hinder coastal wilderness travel. Apparently, the boat can be paddled
well enough without the skeg, which I tried in some afternoon rough water (a
skegged model, undeployed). I didn't get to try the Mariner II, but from
what I could gather, the only issue was the guy had to back-paddle so
everyone could catch up with him. :-)

As far as this whole sliding seat/entrapment issue, I think Peter was
originally objective enough (and bold enough) to question some of your
outfitting practices. Heck, good objective, non mendaciously reply-twisted
inquiry and likeminded response is a favoured venue for enlightenment on
this list, so I hope you guys tone it down for the rest of us who learn
through these exchanges and appreciate true honestly as a life principle.

In terms of entrapment, I came across no accounts of sliding-seat dangers
within the context of my own investigation and information forwarded to SK
Magazine and subsequently forwarded to you originally. I did have my own
experience with entrapment due to submarining inside my cockpit (it was
foamed out tightly, the bulkhead way back, and the foot rest mount failed. I
certainly did not go up to my armpits, even if I was (am) short). I think
Steve's use of the term was more hyperbole than factual statement making,
though I'm sure there may have been some manner of slipping too far into the
cockpit, but we are talking about to what degree here, and there has been no
confirmation or denial, or direct first hand reporting.

>From what I observed with the Mariner II was that the front bow was so well
designed, I highly doubt there would be much submerging and subsequent
cartwheeling like it did with my Nordkapp. About the only issue I saw with
the Mariner II was achieving the correct load/trim levels to achieve a
neutral position from whence to start adjusting to changing see conditions.
My impression was that the Mariner II  in anything over a two foot chop and
wind from the stern quarter still needs a good, proactive paddler, or as you
state elsewhere, "a few good men" or something like that, but the resultant
ride well worth it.

I if trip around with the same guys again and we get some rougher
conditions, I'll definitely ask the paddler if I can borrow the Mariner II
to try out in some of the rougher stuff where these issues are more
noteworthy in their relevance.

Respectfully,

Doug Lloyd
Victoria BC
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Received on Mon Jul 26 2004 - 09:09:06 PDT

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