Today we, my wife and I, sailed our Klepper Aerius II Expedition. Nothing special you say, but for my wife it was her very first trip in any kind of sailing vessel, big or small, and for me it was a return to what I did in my late teens, even if the boats then were twice as long and possibly 100 times heavier! Pretty early we decided that an outrigger of some kind would be helpful, and having read Dal Stanley's account of experiments with various rigs and floats we knew we wanted a single float of some kind, sticking out to the starboard side, as we also have bought a tiny four-stroke outboard that prefer that side (so we'll keep the float on for powered trips). By the way, here's Dal's URL: http://dalstanley.tripod.com/folbot.htm Having studied various types of inflatable things, that possibly could be used as an outrigger, I suddenly came to think of a dormant model project of mine: A flying boat made out of EPP (the wings would come from a Dave's Aircraft Works sailplane, as they already are made of EPP, this wonder material that can stand almost any mishandling and then just bounces back to original shape). Deep down in the cellar I found the flying boat hull, a little dusty and devoid of any covering or other nice details, but it would do for a test. A 20 x 20 mm aluminium tube (6063) would do as the arm that the outrigger attches to and the arm itself I clamped to the leeboard crossbar with Klepper-style J-clamps. The flying boat hull I attached to the tube with a piece of string - that's pretty much it! Took a while to rig the Klepper, but eventually we were ready - my wife in the rear as helmsman and me up front pulling all the ropes :-)! We had slept late - I arrived home after midnight Friday evening after a 10 hour day driving a non-airconditioned bus - so we were eventually ready to sail about 2 pm. Can't say the Klepper mast impressed me much - very wobbly unless you really tighten the stays, and the stays get in the way when you sail down-wind - not really the best design I've seen. I had replaced the original stays with kevlar lines - dyneema is probably even better - and added a kicking block to stretch the sail better. I also added lines so I could lower both the jib and the main while under way, from both the rear and the front seat. My wife used the pedals to steer and I managed the sails - and until we started to make good speed my wife wasn't that impressed, but she quickly got bitten by the sailing bug! So now she awaits next chance to battle with the wind. Sadly I forgot to turn the GPS on, but I'm pretty certain that we went supersonic at times :-)! After a really rewarding afternoon at our favourite lake, Tord S Eriksson PS Photos can more comments can be seen here: http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/Sailing *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> By the way, here's Dal's URL: http://dalstanley.tripod.com/folbot.htm > I read his site a long time ago, - as I recall, his total sails area is quite impressive. May be even larger than in S4 (double Klepper rig), and sure larger than in S1. I wonder how fast such a boat would go with only one mainsail, or mainsail + jib, and two people. Wouldn't expect much, particularly upwind. I'm a bit disappointed in upwind handling of loaded (few-days cargo) 17ft hardshell and 15 ft folder (both 25" wide) with 32 sq.ft Balogh rig (2.9 sq.m.). In both boats I've installed the mast aft (something that yachtsmen can't understand :-), because chances to get a wind between Vancouver Island and mainland are about 50% at best. Another 50% of time I have to paddle (that's why the mast is aft). It is also much warmer to paddle than sail in most of BC summer time :-). At the most optimistic side I would estimate upwind sailing of both boats about 60-65 degrees to upwind without much beam waves, unloaded, without even a sleeping bag (considering straight headwind = 0 deg). When loaded and with beam or head waves it becomes about 10-20 degrees - little benefit compared to paddling. Yesterday I've got into combination of headwind and head tidal current, and couldn't make any upwind - only crosswind with some drift down the current (resulting course was equivalent to 10-15 deg downwind). But it would be much harder to paddle same course, after I stupidly tried to fight the current and headwind , paddling for two hours, with sail lowered. Paddling a kayak with a double-arm outrigger is about 50% less effective than without it, even if crossbar and leeboard dosn't get into way like in my case. Add any cargo, waves and current, and you get zero upwind paddling of such a trimaran. I suspect that this year with record low tides in coastal BC currents are stronger. You are right in your observation, - women often enjoy sailing more than paddling, if they can compare and choose. I can understand them. Open cockpit of Klepper allows for "hiking out", or at least sitting on board, but of course with a tiller instead of pedals. Operating pedals, going downwind for hours with only one pedal pressed all the time, is tiresome. Not to mention inability to stand up or change your position for a while. > 20 x 20 mm aluminium tube (6063) would do as the arm that the outrigger > attches to and the arm itself I clamped to the leeboard crossbar with > Klepper-style J-clamps If it is a round 20mm tube, 6 ft long at each board, length of Balogh crossbar), it is too thin. It should be about 35 mm thick (1.5"). Square one must be stronger, but less aerodinamically efective. There could be other reasons why crossbars in such rigs and catamarans are mostly round-section tubes. > Sadly I forgot to turn the GPS on, but I'm pretty certain that we went > supersonic at times :-)! That's what big guys on yachts have been asking me (quite agressively :-) all the time. Then I've bought a GPS and measured - it is about 8 or 10 knots *downwind* (13-16 km/h) at best with such a configuration. 2-4 times less on close upwind course (but crosswind sailing can be pretty fast). I would say, when I make10 knots downwind, it is already too cold (BC isn't Florida), and too scary - if one arm or float of outrigger fails, capsize is 100% guaranteed. My floats are inflatable, so they can fail. You can sail with only one outrigger, and more effectively than with a double one, but this needs more readiness and cooperation of both sailors - and, of course, a tiller. It needs warmer waters too :-). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tuesday 20 July 2004 08.30, you wrote: > > By the way, here's Dal's URL: http://dalstanley.tripod.com/folbot.htm > > I read his site a long time ago, - as I recall, his total sails area is > quite impressive. May be even larger than in S4 (double Klepper rig), and > sure larger than in S1. I wonder how fast such a boat would go with only > one mainsail, or mainsail + jib, and two people. Wouldn't expect much, > particularly upwind. Hi Alex, Interesting comments! We didn't do terribly well upwind the first time we tried either so eventually my wife paddled and steered and I handled the sheets :-)! > I'm a bit disappointed in upwind handling of loaded > (few-days cargo) 17ft hardshell and 15 ft folder (both 25" wide) with 32 > sq.ft Balogh rig (2.9 sq.m.). In both boats I've installed the mast aft > (something that yachtsmen can't understand :-), because chances to get a > wind between Vancouver Island and mainland are about 50% at best. Another > 50% of time I have to paddle (that's why the mast is aft). It is also much > warmer to paddle than sail in most of BC summer time :-). At the most > optimistic side I would estimate upwind sailing of both boats about 60-65 > degrees to upwind without much beam waves, unloaded, without even a > sleeping bag (considering straight headwind = 0 deg). Think we would have bettered that, but I did find out that with the S4 rig and a heavier person up front it did bury its nose in the waves a bit - will try with two masts soon, and a narrow sprit sail inbetween - easier to pack away. Possibly cut down the main a little bit, too! > When loaded and with beam or head waves it becomes about 10-20 degrees - > little benefit compared to paddling. Yesterday I've got into combination of > headwind and head tidal current, and couldn't make any upwind - only > crosswind with some drift down the current (resulting course was equivalent > to 10-15 deg downwind). But it would be much harder to paddle same course, > after I stupidly tried to fight the current and headwind , paddling for two > hours, with sail lowered. Paddling a kayak with a double-arm outrigger is > about 50% less effective than without it, even if crossbar and leeboard > dosn't get into way like in my case. Add any cargo, waves and current, and > you get zero upwind paddling of such a trimaran. I suspect that this year > with record low tides in coastal BC currents are stronger. We'll probably restrict ourselves to one easily detachable leeboard, but only time can tell if that will work. > You are right in your observation, - women often enjoy sailing more than > paddling, if they can compare and choose. I can understand them. Oh, you got me wrong: She loves paddling (both canoe and kayak) and now sailing, but hates travelling in motorboats! > Open cockpit of Klepper allows for "hiking out", or at least sitting on > board, but of course with a tiller instead of pedals. Operating pedals, > going downwind for hours with only one pedal pressed all the time, is > tiresome. Not to mention inability to stand up or change your position for > a while. A hike board is coming from my design studio as soon as I can manage, as is a left-hand tiller :-)! > > > 20 x 20 mm aluminium tube (6063) would do as the arm that the outrigger > > attches to and the arm itself I clamped to the leeboard crossbar with > > Klepper-style J-clamps > > If it is a round 20mm tube, 6 ft long at each board, length of Balogh > crossbar), it is too thin. It should be about 35 mm thick (1.5"). Square > one must be stronger, but less aerodinamically efective. There could be > other reasons why crossbars in such rigs and catamarans are mostly > round-section tubes. It is a square tube, but I will reinfoce the inner end as soon as the definitive design is ready. So I think my 20 mm square tube will be OK! > > > Sadly I forgot to turn the GPS on, but I'm pretty certain that we went > > supersonic at times :-)! > > That's what big guys on yachts have been asking me (quite agressively :-) > all the time. Then I've bought a GPS and measured - it is about 8 or 10 > knots *downwind* (13-16 km/h) at best with such a configuration. 2-4 times > less on close upwind course (but crosswind sailing can be pretty fast). I > would say, when I make10 knots downwind, it is already too cold (BC isn't > Florida), and too scary - if one arm or float of outrigger fails, capsize > is 100% guaranteed. We found a single float actually a bonus in many ways: It doesn't make our craft so wide as a trimaran set-up, thus easier to handle close to the shore, and it is very educational to try to keep it just out of the water all the time. Speedwise I would agree with your test runs: It felt like three-four times faster than normal paddling, and we did use our GPS to confirm our speed while paddling around Skye: we did about 3.5 knots then, at the very best, on a long distance :-)! > My floats are inflatable, so they can fail. You can > sail with only one outrigger, and more effectively than with a double one, > but this needs more readiness and cooperation of both sailors - and, of > course, a tiller. It needs warmer waters too :-). We had about 18 deg C water at the time. My single float can't sink and is so close to indestructible as it can be - a shotgun or sharp axe is needed to destroy it! The aluminium tube can break, so we'll have a safety line forward to the bow of the kayak next time out, offloads it a bit! Tord PS The S4 sail area is 5 sq meters (about 50 sq. ft). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Don't know what I was thinking, writing this: 1) "When loaded and with beam or head waves it becomes about 10-20 degrees ". This, of course, should read as 80-70 degrees (i.e. from 0 degree headwind direction) 2) "crosswind with some drift down the current (resulting course was equivalent to 10-15 deg downwind)". This should read as "100-105 deg downwind" (i.e. from 0 deg headwind). Everything else is more or less corrrect. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> PS The S4 sail area is 5 sq meters (about 50 sq. ft). 5 sq.m is about 55 sq.ft; I've looked through your new pictures, and was prompted to read all 4 phases of Dal's website again. His final rig is 68 sq.ft (28sq.ft jib + 40 sq.ft Optimist, though listed 35 in specs). He tends to solve problems cheap, I tried this too, but eventually had to buy from Balogh and Folbot, and don't regret. Dal claims an excellent upwind sailing with only 35 (40) sq.ft sail, so your S4 must be equally good with proper rudder and proper leeboard. He also says, btw, that his home-made leeboard (looks at least same big as Klepper's) is too small to prevent a leeway. May be I was too pessimistic about 60-65 degrees upwind sailing after fighting with currents, and missing last ferry to mainland :-). It could be 50-55 deg, but I doubt it was anything better with an aft 32 sq.ft rig. I'm planning to add another, fore sail (smaller, perhaps 24 sq.ft) to my 32 sq.ft aft sail on a hardshell kayak. Mark Balogh assured me once that upwind rigs are "natural upwind climbers". Not really, as I've found. Of course, he knows a lot and could mean something else. Yes, they tend to turn into wind, but don't tend to sail well in this direction :-)... Also, tacking with an aft sail always involves 2-3 paddling strokes, and larger rudder is needed (and preferably foiled). Such adaptations are sometimes unique, - I couldn't find anybody with an aft rig on hardshell kayak or Feathercraft Kahuna, except for experimental Kahuna aft rig by Mark Balogh, not suitable for my purposes. Though, with Kahuna my task was easier due to Tony Niilus project with K1: http://www.geocities.com/niilus/ . Most of dimensions I had to change, adapting it to my boat. Round tubes are probaly used on seas for aerodynamical and uniform strength considerations. 20 * 20 mm square tube has a diagonal same as 20 mm round tube, which means same size at certain directions as in 20mm round tube (= same wind resistance, or even higher due to turbulence around corners) , but I.m not sure how much stronger is a square one. And even then it will be stronger in some directions and weaker in others, while round one has uniform strength. Just thinking aloud... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wednesday 21 July 2004 07.22, you wrote: > > PS The S4 sail area is 5 sq meters (about 50 sq. ft). > > 5 sq.m is about 55 sq.ft; I've looked through your new pictures, and was > prompted to read all 4 phases of Dal's website again. His final rig is 68 > sq.ft (28sq.ft jib + 40 sq.ft Optimist, though listed 35 in specs). He > tends to solve problems cheap, I tried this too, but eventually had to buy > from Balogh and Folbot, and don't regret. Dal claims an excellent upwind > sailing with only 35 (40) sq.ft sail, so your S4 must be equally good with > proper rudder and proper leeboard. He also says, btw, that his home-made > leeboard (looks at least same big as Klepper's) is too small to prevent a > leeway. As yet I haven't used my own design leeboards ( see http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/tord/leeboard_before_reinforcing ) but I think I'll just use one, and change the profile to symmetric ... > May be I was too pessimistic about 60-65 degrees upwind sailing after > fighting with currents, and missing last ferry to mainland :-). It could > be 50-55 deg, but I doubt it was anything better with an aft 32 sq.ft rig. > I'm planning to add another, fore sail (smaller, perhaps 24 sq.ft) to my 32 > sq.ft aft sail on a hardshell kayak. Mark Balogh assured me once that > upwind rigs are "natural upwind climbers". Not really, as I've found. Of > course, he knows a lot and could mean something else. Yes, they tend to > turn into wind, but don't tend to sail well in this direction :-)... > Also, tacking with an aft sail always involves 2-3 paddling strokes, > and larger rudder is needed (and preferably foiled). Such adaptations > are sometimes unique, - I couldn't find anybody with an aft rig on > hardshell kayak or Feathercraft Kahuna, except for experimental > Kahuna aft rig by Mark Balogh, not suitable for my purposes. > Though, with Kahuna my task was easier due to > Tony Niilus project with K1: http://www.geocities.com/niilus/ . Most of > dimensions I had to change, adapting it to my boat. > > Round tubes are probaly used on seas for aerodynamical and uniform strength > considerations. 20 * 20 mm square tube has a diagonal same as 20 mm round > tube, which means same size at certain directions as in 20mm round tube (= > same wind resistance, or even higher due to turbulence around corners) , > but I.m not sure how much stronger is a square one. And even then it will > be stronger in some directions and weaker in others, while round one has > uniform strength. Just thinking aloud... Buckling a round is on the other hand much easier to do, so they are not ideal in bending - in a normal rig the stays are there to help it from bucking. For compression, on the other hand, the round tube is without equal! Tord, rookie sailor *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:37 PDT