A report just out from the Coast Guard: http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/efficacy.htm Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At LAST !!! A quick vanity check shows that Internet regulars whose names I recognize (mostly from here) cited include: Rich Culpepper Ralph Diaz Michale Edelman Chuck Holst Rich Kulawiec Gary MacDonald Alex McGruer And others whose names I don't recognize. Now I have to go and read it, but when I saw Risk Homeostasis as a chapter I had to check and see if I got a smidgin of credit for pushing Ms. OHara down that path. GaryJ PS Thanks Nick! Nick Schade wrote: > A report just out from the Coast Guard: > http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/efficacy.htm > > Nick Schade > > Guillemot Kayaks > 824 Thompson St > Glastonbury, CT 06033 > USA > Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Quoting "Gary J. MacDonald" <garyj_at_rogers.com>: > At LAST !!! > > A quick vanity check shows that Internet regulars whose names I recognize > (mostly from here) cited include: > > Rich Culpepper > Ralph Diaz > Michale Edelman > Chuck Holst > Rich Kulawiec > Gary MacDonald > Alex McGruer > > And others whose names I don't recognize. Scott Bemis was also a member of Paddlewise for a while (I think he left because of what he perceived to be anti-sponson bias), and the unnamed person who had witnessed or experienced a couple of tows might be Bill Newman, another sometime Paddlewisenheimer. All in all, a well-balanced (no sponsons required!) and well-researched report, but as a technical writer I am affronted not only by the typos, but by the fact that the PDF was created by scanning rather than from the source document, which would have made the PDF searchable. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > A report just out from the Coast Guard: > http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/efficacy.htm > Thanks for passing that along Nick. The sponson part is interesting, but the bit about Rick Homeostasis Theory was especially interesting. It explains why the "religious" debates occur here from time to time regarding pfd use, loading and other safety issues, and why nobody ever "wins." Seems that if there's not enough risk, we'll manufacture some! Make kayaks/kayaking safer and we'll push the envelope back to the same level of risk we enjoy. Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Carey Parks wrote: > Thanks for passing that along Nick. The sponson part is interesting, but > the bit about Rick Homeostasis Theory was especially interesting. It > explains why the "religious" debates occur here from time to time > regarding pfd use, loading and other safety issues, and why nobody ever > "wins." Seems that if there's not enough risk, we'll manufacture some! > Make kayaks/kayaking safer and we'll push the envelope back to the same > level of risk we enjoy. Risk homeostasis is fascinating stuff. (I run into it as a regulatory analysts in my "day" job, and in traffic safety work.) It explains whay adding safety equipment to for example hockey players changes the nature of the injuries, but does not have much overall effect. For example adding face masks successfully reduces minor eye and face injuries, and dental damage. On the other hand IIRC it is believed to have resulted in more serious neck and other upper body injuries to higher level players who play hard and physically because it increases the players' feeling of invincibility. Recently applied as a hypothesis to a battle at school about pea gravel under play structures (vs. sand). If kids play to a certain level of thrill, then making it safer to land may very well prompt them to feel safer doing more adventurous moves. So fewer bumps and bruises, but an occaisional broken arm from a bigger fall. Kids are perfet for risk homeostasis because they respond entirely by instinct. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:38 AM 7/22/2004 -0400, Nick Schade wrote: >A report just out from the Coast Guard: >http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/efficacy.htm Interesting reading. The bibliography was very interesting as well. There were quite a few references to people that have been active on this list through telephone interview or email messages. One thing that stood out was that pretty much all of them were dated with a single date but for one particular person the emails/telephone conversations went on for 3 1/2 months. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:19:07 -0400 John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: >At 08:38 AM 7/22/2004 -0400, Nick Schade wrote: >> . . . . One thing that stood out was that pretty much all of them were dated with >a single date but for one particular person the emails/telephone conversations went on for >3 1/2 months. And yet there was no attributed quote or paraphrase naming him. Gotta wonder. Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RICHARD CULPEPER wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:19:07 -0400 > John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: > >> At 08:38 AM 7/22/2004 -0400, Nick Schade wrote: >>> . . . . One thing that stood out was that pretty much all of them >>> were dated with >> >> a single date but for one particular person the emails/telephone >> conversations went on for 3 1/2 months. > > And yet there was no attributed quote or paraphrase naming him. Gotta > wonder. > > Richard Culpeper I know in my case she may have referenced a single email, probably the one where I gave her a list of leads on risk homeostasis, but we spoke several times and exchanged multiple emails. I also spoke/wrote with Richard Kanehl several times. I always had a significant degree of confidence that he read the entire situation fairly well. And on Richard's point, I don't wonder. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/22/2004 9:21:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: > At 08:38 AM 7/22/2004 -0400, Nick Schade wrote: > >A report just out from the Coast Guard: > >http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/efficacy.htm > I was surprised by all the typos. I think the government should invest all that money into spell check rather than tell us what to do to our boats. ; ) No actually, the report seems to say that they are an option and not for everybody or every situation. Kinda like what's been debated here for awhile. Nicely done report and thanks to Nick to alerting us. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Waters was the name I've missed most on PW but did see it there. Kinda' got the feeling they wish we did like them but admitted we don't and don't use them for all the above reasons. I've never paddled a double either and I'm curious about that too. Joan > > Rich Culpepper > Ralph Diaz > Michale Edelman > Chuck Holst > Rich Kulawiec > Gary MacDonald > Alex McGruer > > And others whose names I don't recognize. Scott Bemis was also a member of Paddlewise for a while (I think he left because of what he perceived to be anti-sponson bias), and the unnamed person who had witnessed or experienced a couple of tows might be Bill Newman, another sometime Paddlewisenheimer. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Joan" <JSPINNER_at_peoplepc.com> > John Waters was the name I've missed most on PW but did see it there. Do you mean John Winters? He was featured in the report. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I just read the whole report. What I want to know is how many of my tax dollars went into this rehash and mishmash of opinions compiled by someone who obviously didn't know very much about paddling themselves? Maybe assigning the task to someone naive about the subject was supposed to make it more objective. Why couldn't they have gotten together a small group of paddlers ranging from experts to novices and do a few experiments to see what the problems were for each sub-group and how well different proposed solutions actually worked for that sub-group of paddlers (in a variety of the conditions where paddler deaths have been known to occur). Then from personal experience and measurement they could list what the upsides and downsides were to the various proposed solutions. One benefit of experiments would be that the results would have been more up-to-date than the opinions of those who experimented with them 12 to 15 years ago. I'm no friend of Tim's (being included among those he names as having the blood of a thousand paddlers on his hands) but he did eventually take my advice and recently updated his sponsons to get rid of some of their major downsides. Some of the criticism of sponsons (difficulty of deploying the tangled mess for one) was no longer applicable to the latest version. It's too bad that Tim has already poisoned the word "Sponsons" so much that they are practically universally shunned and no one (except the government) pays attention to the whole category any more. Rather than accept and publish someone's estimate of around 20% more drag due to sponsons, why not have someone paddle a kayak with sponsons deployed (as they work best for stability) and compare their time over a short course with the same paddler without sponsons deployed? Doubling the drag only loses about one knot in speed. From my experience with them I'd be willing to bet sponsons do far more than just double the drag. Roger may have meant they cut his speed by 20% rather than that they added that much drag. Even looked at it that way I'd bet the reduction in top speed is far more than 20%. I especially liked that one of the "commonly used materials" for making kayaks and canoes was "proprietary lay-up". Gee, I haven't heard of that yet, it must be one of them new-fangled materials. Probably something very similar to that older material known as "I'd rather not say". I can't say I disagreed with the conclusions, but I'd sure like to know who got paid how much for this government boondoggle. Did this whole report (and the waste of my tax dollars to produce it) result because an unnamed Canadian, with an agenda, willed it to happen? Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I'd be willing to bet sponsons do far more than just double the drag. Roger may have meant they cut his speed by 20% rather than that they added that much drag. Even looked at it that way I'd bet the reduction in top speed is far more than 20%. I thought I threw in my 2 cents, but perhaps message has fallen through some virtual crack. Using sometimes sponsons with a sail rig (OK, with port and starboard outriggers - damn bags are still the same), I feel they slow me down by 30%-50% when I paddle. Even when there is no headwind (that contributes to wind resistance due to outrigger, mast and furled sail). The reduction in top speed could mean the reduction in actual speed, when there is a current and/or headwind, - because one might already be paddling at the top of his abilities to make any headway :-)... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think I called the report "well-researched" in a previous post following a quick read or the report. By that I meant library research. I, too, raised my eyebrows at the definition of stability by length-beam ratio, and I would much prefer the real research Matt Broze proposed. I also find it curious that the author devoted so many pages to prior art, which seems to me tangential to the utility of sponsons. Could the patent search have anything to do with a certain party's reported attempt to patent his product? Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Coincidentally I was at the WoodenBoat Show this past weekend. My booth was adjacent to a fellow Gordon from Ontario selling rope. We talked a little about kayaks and he mentioned a fellow in his town who is interested in kayaks by the name of Tim Ingram. I mentioned some of the ruckus Tim had created. It turns out this man's wife is good friends with Tim's wife. Apparently Tim has been very sick - mentally ill. I do not know the details, but I think it is important for us to understand that in the same way out bodies fail us and let us down, the same can happen with the mind. I think it is clear to us all that Tim let something that he was passionate about become an obsession. When in the depths of a mental illness the concept of "choosing" and "responsibility" for your own actions becomes hard to compute. Gordon knew Tim as highly intelligent man with a wonderful, wry sense of humor who worked as a dispute mediator at a local prison and was apparently very good at it. It is ironic and sad that one aspect of Tim's obsession is he created a dispute that no one seemed able to mediate. We should all try to remember that we are involved with kayaking for fun. At times many of us suffer from taking it all too seriously. I think one thing we can do is try to ignore the "poison" Tim has attached to the word "sponsons" and try to understand/evaluate them on their own merits. If Tim did anything wrong it was caring too much about something we all care about. If Tim took his actions while sick, he is no more responsible than a man with a broken leg is for scratching the floor with his crutches. Nick On Jul 22, 2004, at 11:26 PM, Matt Broze wrote: > I'm no friend of > Tim's (being included among those he names as having the blood of a > thousand > paddlers on his hands) but he did eventually take my advice and > recently > updated his sponsons to get rid of some of their major downsides. Some > of > the criticism of sponsons (difficulty of deploying the tangled mess > for one) > was no longer applicable to the latest version. It's too bad that Tim > has > already poisoned the word "Sponsons" so much that they are practically > universally shunned and no one (except the government) pays attention > to the > whole category any more. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Aside from "Risk Homeostasis Theory", there is another interesting moment in "Statistics" section. Injuries and fatalities rate in kayak/canoe group is about 6 times less than in open motorboats (cabin motorboats is the second risky group). Day-sailing dingies have nearly zero rate of injuries and fatalities. Regarding reported 20% of drag induced by sponsons: probably so, speaking of sponsons attached along the hull. Outrigger sponsons slow me down by at least 30% (feels like 50% to me), due to poor maneurability and higher wind resistance caused by outrigger arms, mast and furled sail on the deck (this is what outrigger is needed for, actually). Absolutely agree that crossing tidal current (and/or headwind) with sponsons may reduce performance way too much. It is hardly realistic on water to dismount outrigger sponons like BSD or Folbot, or simply sponsons attached to the hull - no time, and conditions don't help either. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Schade" <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> To: "'Paddlewise'" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: July 22, 2004 5:38 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Efficacy of Sponsons on Canoes and Kayaks > A report just out from the Coast Guard: > http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/efficacy.htm > > Nick Schade *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wow! How times have changed. I remember when I first presented Risk Homeostatsis to Paddlewise and the Wavelength and was nearly laughed off the net. Dr Wilde and I got a bit of a chuckle out of it. He said that the response should not surprise me as he had received vitriolic response to the theory from people within the safety industry. Ms O'hara's report disappointed me. When interveiwed I suggested that she also interview experts on seaworthiness (naval architects and, in particular, Dr C. J. Marchaj) and review the latest literature to learn the technical reasons why paddlers should excersize caution before subscribing to the safety claims for sponsons. She did not and her report lacks any technical support. I also suggested she visit the Givens Life raft web site to see the perils of high initial stability and light displaceemnt but I see she did not include that in her report possibly because her lack of technical expertise would not reveal the connection. In my interview with her I recall clearly pointing out the adverse relationship between dynamic stability and displacent as wll as the dnagers of considering only static stability as a criteria.and yet she made nothing of that in her report. She attributes the stability of canoes to length/beam ratio alone completely missing the point. She does acknowledege that her study was not scientifically rigourous and as such I have to wonder "why bother?" In her defense she acknowledged that her report had more of a "preliminary" focus and that she had not been asked to do an exhaustive technical study. In a way I think she waffled in her conclusion and did not feel her report addressed the issue as well as it could have. I suppose this could have resulted from the study's focus. The Coastt Guard has a history of problems when dealing with recreational boating (for example, the ludicrous loading formulas and regualtions). We can consider one a thing a certainty. Our friend who promotes the sponsons will harvest all the positive comments and print them out-of-context in his web site. Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: John Winters <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca> > Wow! "Wow!" is right! Wonderful to see you back, John! You have truly been missed. :-) Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well said, John. I agree the value of dynamic stability eluded her. I also was disappointed at the superficial nature of the report. The money could have been better spent if the author had more knowledge of canoes and kayaks, going into the study. It seems clear the originator of the devices had a major role in making this study happen. I hope its results are used wisely. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Winters" <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca> [snip] > Ms O'hara's report disappointed me. When interveiwed I suggested that she > also interview experts on seaworthiness (naval architects and, in > particular, Dr C. J. Marchaj) and review the latest literature to learn the > technical reasons why paddlers should excersize caution before subscribing > to the safety claims for sponsons. She did not and her report lacks any > technical support. I also suggested she visit the Givens Life raft web site > to see the perils of high initial stability and light displaceemnt but I see > she did not include that in her report possibly because her lack of > technical expertise would not reveal the connection. > > In my interview with her I recall clearly pointing out the adverse > relationship between dynamic stability and displacent as wll as the dnagers > of considering only static stability as a criteria.and yet she made nothing > of that in her report. She attributes the stability of canoes to length/beam > ratio alone completely missing the point. She does acknowledege that her > study was not scientifically rigourous and as such I have to wonder "why > bother?" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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