Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca> wrote:>> << <Snip> >>I've been thinking of this on the weekend - if we rely on weight distribution to minimize need for a skeg/rudder, we risk goofing and not being able to adjust on the water. If we rig a sliding seat to correct on the fly, we have simply replaced one form of mechanism that can fail with another.<< While any mechanism might fail some have proven a lot more reliable than others. A few posts back I listed every minor failure I knew about with our sliding seat system. I'll add that it might take a new paddler a little while to learn how to move it (especially if they have not gotten any instruction). Someone with experience doesn't have to even slow the kayak down but can move it with, at most, the loss of a stroke or two. How many failures with sliding seats have you seen? I realize Mariner sliding seats are much less numerous than kayaks with skegs but my experience is that even including the half dozen or so minor slide bolt failures (that don't have much immediate effect on function--the sliding seat is still useable but the pedal isn't held up as high as it should be) failures have happened to far less than 1% of the owners (even just once) in the last 23 years since we started making them. What is the "Subject" line of this discussion? Considering that many skeg owners have had multiple problems and repeated jams with the same skeg and most have jammed their skeg at least once, the "failure rate" of skegs must be well over 100% (possibly as much as 500% or more). I'll bet the percentage of skeg users that have had extremely serious and difficult to repair problems (such as skeg box leaks flooding their stern compartment) is well over 1%. I'm sure some companies skegs are a lot more reliable than others so I don't mean this as a blanket indictment of skegs. In general I'd prefer a problem free skeg to a problem free rudder. For the most part though, it seems that there is a lot of room for improvement with skeg systems. >>Given the simplicity of the most basic skeg designs (rope and cleat rather than silly little sliders and Bowden cables), I don't see much point in avoiding them. The skeg box's blockage of the stern storage area is a minor annoyance IMHO. << Mike<< >>BTW, Nimbus (Rainforest Designs) kayaks all have sliding seats.<< Nimbus seats can be adjusted fore and aft. They have recently made it a lot easier than it was previously (formerly required tools while out of the seat on shore). With the latest version it is possible to move the Nimbus seat while sitting in it although it does require readjusting 4 to 6 webbing straps (four on the seat bottom and two for the foot pedals) and the backrest cord, This is not something that can be done in an instant to optimize the performance for a particular short term condition but adjustment might well be considered if that condition was expected to prevail for a long time. Since most have a rudder, the rudder can be used for short term corrections without much loss. Disclaimer: we sell Nimbus kayaks in our store. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Personally, zero. While the sliding seat is an ingenious engineering idea for me it ruins the purity of the boat. Sorry Matt, but I would never own one. We bought our Express and Elan to avoid having any mechanisms to fail or adjustable gizmos to distract from paddling. I even threw out the contoured foam pad that came with the boats. I glued a one inch thick mini-cell foam pad to the hull so that comes right up the sides at the hips and is long enough (for/aft) to allow any reasonable seating position. My maximum position forward it set by the foot braces and the maximum rearward position by the seat back. Primary positioning is by the foot braces though, so it's repeatable. I've got an inch or two of "trim" just by how I position myself in the boat and that's enough. It took 4 or 5 paddles to get it optimally adjusted, but now it's done. It allows some movement, but is still plenty tight for surfing, bracing, rolling, etc. The boats track and turn wonderfully with the simple foam pads I have glued to the hull. Overall they work far better than any rudder or drop skeg boat I have paddled. Do they track perfectly in all conditions? No, but minor edging takes care of the rest. They just don't need "fixing" with a complex seat. I'll admit that we haven't paddled the boats loaded yet, but we have been able to balance other boats while packing a full load without using whatever gizmos the boats had for tracking. I am confident we can do the same for the Mariners. There will be some trial and error and even then it won't be perfect, but that's one of the reasons I go on multi-day kayaking trips rather than ocean liner cruises. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- ............ A few posts back I listed every minor failure I knew about with our sliding seat system. I'll add that it might take a new paddler a little while to learn how to move it (especially if they have not gotten any instruction). Someone with experience doesn't have to even slow the kayak down but can move it with, at most, the loss of a stroke or two. How many failures with sliding seats have you seen? ............ Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Once, in surf, I witnessed a very competent paddler and Mariner fan slide so far forward in his 'sliding seat' that his skirt blew off the back of the rim and he was as deep into the front of the boat as possible. Literally up to his armpits. He wasn't very happy. I personally wouldn't want my seat shifting around, fore and aft, while underway. steve Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45: 36.285' 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122: 39.841' Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve from "Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe" <aldercreek_at_qwest.net> and the reported designer of WS Tempest series (kayaks with skegs) wrote: >>>>>>>Once, in surf, I witnessed a very competent paddler and Mariner fan slide so far forward in his 'sliding seat' that his skirt blew off the back of the rim and he was as deep into the front of the boat as possible. Literally up to his armpits. He wasn't very happy. I personally wouldn't want my seat shifting around, fore and aft, while underway.<<<<<<< Steve, could you tell me this paddlers name as I would like to talk to him about this incident? If you don't have that information could you tell me the model and color of his kayak? He would be the first person I am aware of to have this happen and I would like to know more details about it. Could you also tell me how he recovered from this situation? I have done many enders (forward and backwards) in the surf with sliding seats and never had the seat move to any appreciable degree but we are well aware (as surf kayakers before since we first designed it) that it might be possible to have the seat slide forward in the surf under just the right combination of conditions. The one I can imagine would be due to an ender in shallow water where the fast moving bow speared the bottom at a shallow enough angle so that it didn't force the kayak into an immediate ender but rather stopped it cold. One of the reasons for the raked bow shape on our designs is to prevent the bow from stopping suddenly if it contacts the bottom at a shallow angle (or any hard object in the water head on). This is not just to help keep the seat from sliding forward but such a collision could be very hard on ones ankles, the kayak's foot pedals, and the kayak using just about any kayak with footbraces. I learned about this possibility early in my kayaking career when using old pointed bow (1970's vintage) whitewater kayaks in the surf before I even owned a sea kayak. Several times in various kayaks I've had the bow snag the bottom and result in an ender in shallow surf. More often the bow has bounced off the bottom, hopping forward in sort of a stutter step, but I have yet to snag the bow in a Mariner model. In fact, I don't recall ever having a Mariner model pearl that deep (except doing a rear ender--I have a slide of one where all that is visible is the very bow of the 16' 6" long Escape and one paddle blade sticking out of the wave--I wish it had been a motor drive or video camera as the next thing I knew Cam was completely vertical and airborne in what looked like a Polaris missile rising from the surface and I missed the shot). Only a few times have I ever been able to get the bow of Coaster or Express to pearl at all in big surf even though I was trying to do so (and those times their bow's quickly rose back to the surface rather than diving towards the bottom). I once accidentally ran straight into a shore consisting of big boulders of sharp edged volcanic rubble paddling at a racing speed. Imagine river rip-rap to get an idea of the shore's steepness and boulder size. My Mariner II was suspended over the water with my bow three feet in the air and the stern still in the water. The sliding seat didn't move but I was feeling like a turkey on a spit. Feeling very tippy and having a heck of a time reaching down to the water to brace. Luckily, I slid backwards down into the water again without capsizing. It was a pitch black moonless cloudy Baja night and I was fascinated by the patterns of vortices swirling around my paddle blade (made visible by the brightest phosphorescence I had ever seen--which also didn't help my night vision). I had paddled faster and faster to see how the swirl patterns might change with speed (in a direction I had thought was toward open water until the moment I felt and heard the initial crash). The kayak is still my demo Mariner II, some gouges near the bow serve to remind me of that folly. Had I first hit the bow square into a big boulder the seat might have moved and my ankles would have been very thankful if it did. As it was the rake at the bow bounced it up higher and higher as it glanced off the boulders. The sliding seat footbraces are also designed to bind up temporarily (like brakes) and not allow the seat to slide much if sudden pressure is applied to them anywhere but with just the outside of the foot to just the hull-most part of the pedal. This makes teaching someone to slide the seat a little more difficult at first but helps prevent sudden major unwanted seat slides in a collision. While I can see how the seat might slide forward given just the right combination of factors (including just the right position of the feet on the pedals) I'm having a hard time seeing how someone could get "up to his armpits" in the cockpit of any kayak unless their feet somehow slid past the foot pedals. Feet sliding past the pedals would seem a lot less likely to happen if the seat/footbrace unit slid forward some softening the blow of spearing the bottom. Maybe the paddler you say had this experience can fill in the details for us. Below are some quotes copied from the Mariner "Owners" manual (the full version is available on our website) that address the possibility of having the seat get too far forward. "After you've acquired the technique of moving the seat back and forward practice sliding the seat back when capsized and hanging upside down in the cockpit because wet exiting will be more difficult if the seat is well forward of trim, especially for very large paddlers. When you first try this have a friend standing by to help you back upright if necessary." Later in the manual the entrapment issue (from many possible causes) is addressed in detail (and in boldface). The part concerning the issue with the sliding seat you are concerned about is below: "MORE SAFETY CAUTIONS AND WARNINGS <Big Snip> Although it has never happened to us (or any other surf kayakers we knew) during many years of surfing with our sliding seat kayaks, there is still the possibility that when paddling in bigger surf (or rock gardens and sea caves combined with ocean swell) that the kayak's bow could hit the bottom (or a solid object) hard enough that the seat might be moved well forward (even though the seat won't move forward easily unless several things are done in just the right combination). While we have always found the sliding seat to be especially easy to move to the back when we were upside down, if something were to block the seat's free movement to the rear (once it had been moved well forward) then it could conceivably be difficult to exit the cockpit. We strongly suggest you also practice sliding the seat while upside down. Do this in shallow water with a friend standing by to help should you have trouble. Remember to take the pressure off your feet anytime you want to move the seat backwards. With the possibility of entrapment in mind, we suggest that anyone intending to paddle in extreme conditions (while using the sliding seat option), both make sure to not put anything behind the seat that could shift around and block it from moving freely backwards and to limit the forward slide range of the seat to a point where a wet exit would still be easy. The easiest way we have found to limit the seats slide range is by drilling holes through the cockpit coaming's (hung seat) hangers and through both of the seatbacks vertical braces (near the seat body and top of the braces) such that a stout 1/4 or 5/16 inch nylon cord can be threaded through all four holes in a relatively straight line. Next adjust the stout cord's length to limit the range of the seat to positions where wet exits are easy for you. The cord can be removed or loosened some for less extreme paddling and the full seat slide range restored." Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:39 PM 7/6/2004 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: > One of the reasons for the raked bow shape on our >designs is to prevent the bow from stopping suddenly if it contacts the >bottom at a shallow angle (or any hard object in the water head on). This is >not just to help keep the seat from sliding forward but such a collision >could be very hard on ones ankles, the kayak's foot pedals, and the kayak >using just about any kayak with footbraces. I read somewhere that one of the traditional reasons for a raked bow on a kayak was to allow hunters to paddle up onto an ice flow (seal landing) rather than have the bow possibly go under the ice when making contact. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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