Re:[Paddlewise] Nadgee, Max, Boat copying/ not moving on

Drawn back in.
I get the digest version of Paddlewise, which may
have something to do with postings out of
sequence. Or maybe these emails travel via a
server in Azerbaijan, who knows.

The photos Matt makes available are helpful for
other Paddlewisers to see what this is all about.
I have been aware of the general similarity for a
long time, being a Nadgee owner, and having grazed
the Mariner website. While those who haven't seen
a Nadgee before will note the obvious
similarities, there are differences with the
hulls,  they are not identical. The Nadgee is in
the same family of boat hull shapes as Mariner
boats, but it is not a hand-in-glove fit with the
Max. That brings back the question whether the
boats are so similar as to make the Nadgee a
re-badged Max or not, not for legal purposes, but
from the point of view of Matt being entitled to
feel ripped-off. The whole of the information I
have makes me comfortable it is not, and
particularly the lengthy testing and changing
process with a paddleable plug, and a test boat.
Add to that Matt appears to have known of the
Nadgee's development from a very early time,
including the use of Max sections, before the
Nadgee was finished and sold. It is made and sold
in small numbers and there is a lengthy waiting
list.

Matt's email quotes:
"...The prototype was pretty heavy and rough on
the outside, but gave him an idea of what changes
he wanted to make.  He subsequently made a number
of modifications and started production. "

Now read this last part again, Matt, from my point
of view if you can. I still don't know the method
by which the Nadgee was made in full, but note the
end of this email: further changes made. This is a
report from someone other than Dave, so again, you
could contact him directly and clear the matter
up.

"The builder was CC'ed this, so knew what I'd been
told already. I contacted the builder about his
intentions in regards to sales in America. This is
a small part of his
response in Jan. of  2003." "As (Name) told you, I
got the profiles from your Max
out of Sea Kayaker magazine, enlarged them and
overlaid them on the profiles I had already
drawn."
Why don't you contact him and clarify what
happened from that point onwards? Satisfy yourself
that he went on and changed the shape into a
Nadgee, not a Max identi-boat. Did that email tell
you that? Reflect on the fact that the Nadgee has
different handling characteristics, according to
your testing.

"So you were right Peter, it looks likely I was
told that someone in Oz was attempting to use the
Max offsets in Sea Kayaker to make himself a kayak
(although I still don't recall that part of the
long conversations I had with the visitor eight
years ago). But, if you knew that I had been
informed about this, then you must also have known
about the builders use of the Max offsets from
your informant. Why couldn't you admit such on
this forum? I certainly gave you many chances."
You are supposing that I had full details of the
Nadgee's creation, which I didn't, and still
don't. There could be many details added, but
knowing that a process of change in the boat shape
occurred by experiment and testing of a plug, and
test boat, combined with an assurance that there
was no intention to copy a Max, I am satisfied.

Here is an additional element which governs what
attitude the designer of the original boat might
have when discovering a similar boat: What was the
intention of the subsequent boat maker? I think
Matt should conclude that the process was openly
stated to him. Before any Nadgee was sold, its
creator had received news that Matt wished him
well with it. Matt had been told of the use of his
boat's cross sections before he expressed those
wishes in 1995. I am happy with Dave's intentions,
and again, if you want to check this Matt, go
direct. I can't pretend to tell you what another
person's intentions were.

"Also, please recall that you opened this whole
can of worms by asking a direct question to me:
"No guess necessary, as posted several times, a
Nadgee Expedition. What is the hull design history
of this boat?"

Recalling that, I now at least have enough of the
design history to be satisfied that an incarnation
of this hull shape type has been made in
Australia, and fitted out with bulkheads, smaller
cockpit, decklines, foot-pump etc, to be a fine
sea kayak.

"Is answering direct questions something I should
learn to avoid doing, as well?"
You're doing very well in relation to your
previous knowledge.

The history of the Nadgee's creation includes use
of some enlarged Mariner sections, according to
recent emails. It also includes Matt turning a
blind eye to that early in the piece, and
continuing to do that. I can understand that Matt
would not want to approach Dave about this in a
critical way now, having asked to be the Nadgee US
distributor in 2002, and having learned of, and
been reminded of the use of the Mariner sections
several times in the past without having made any
criticism at
those times. Matt's reason makes sense: he is not
selling boats in the same market and doesn't lose
anything. It looks a little lame and late to raise
it now. I still decline to go looking for further
details from Dave as Matt's proxy, for the reasons
set out earlier. And other than what has come out
to date, I don't find it all that interesting to
further question Matt on his previous knowledge.
He knew, he let it go for understandable reasons,
and that is that.

I am grateful to the whole line of contributors to
kayak shapes and designs, from the Inuit onwards.
I am particularly grateful to Dave for taking this
idea for a rudderless boat that works, and
changing it in the way he has.

Cheers, PT



PS

"stabbing by kayak"
No cure by clown noses for this problem, although
I have seen a boat with a tennis ball stuck on the
bow to blunt it.
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