[Paddlewise] Design copies

PeterO wrote:

> I was just reminded of a debate on seam strength some years ago. Would the
> strength of the bond between a fully cured deck and a fully cured hull be
> adequate for a sea kayak? i.e could it be made as strong as a well made
join
> between a partially cured deck and hull?

Yes. Granting the proper technique and adhesive. We used to do this in the
racing sailboat business with success. I raced a Flying Dutchman for several
years built this way. I also built some ocean racing sailboats this way.

Colin Calder wrote;

> Do you think it's a copy?
> Is it the same size? And is it the same shape?  And do the parameters
chosen
> to define size and shape (no matter how sophisticated, who thought them
up,
> when they were thought up, where they were thought up) amount to any more
> than increasing detail, and if so where do you stop!!!!

You stop when you think you have sufficiently convinced the judge (or jury)
of your claim. :-)

> How many commercial kayaks share similar design parameters?

I suspect not a lot. Just the copies. Out of over forty designs I have only
seen three commercial copies of my boats. Two from the same builder.


> Is there more to a kayak than the hullform? (clearly, IMHO)

Yes, deck form for example. I can't speak for other designers but I consider
the hull the primary determinant of performance so I don't worry if someone
copies deck details.


> Are the supposedly objective measures of quantitative engineering design
the
> only way of looking at this? -

I think so. I know of no one who can quantify personal opinion to any degree
of accuracy. The feel you notice is precisely that, "The feel you notice".
Others may not notice it or may notice something else.

Here I want to lapse into a story to explain.

Years ago a builder of a canoe of my design took two boats to a canoe
symposium Both made from the same mold and of the same laminate. One had a
white hull and aluminium trim. The other a red hull and wood trim. We told
some highly experienced paddlers that the boats differed slightly and asked
for their input as to which hull design we should use. They all paddled the
boats doing various maneuvers etc. All said without exception that the red
boat was more responsive and faster.

For every paddler who says he can detect a difference I feel sure we can
find one who can't. Who would we believe?

> Is one person's sleazebag tactics another person's legitimate design
> methodology? There are after all a number of ways to skin a cat, as it
were,
> and a long history of boats evolving from previous designs no matter who
> drew them.

That is why we often have to resort to legal remedies. Sad but true.
Determinng the difference between evolution and design theft does pose a lot
of problems as we have seen in this list. We won't solve those problems by
ignoring them. I doubt if Matt or Nick would ever copy one of my designs
(and vice versa) because they have enough confidence in their abilities and
enough knowledge to create competitive designs using their own ideas.


> But really does it matter?  I think this needs a value judgement, not just
a
> quantitative measurement. If I was going to buy into a mariner, or
> guillemot design or John Winter's design I would want to buy into the boat
> and the experience of the designer and quality of design produced (which
> could be copied granted), but also the authenticity of the design - a copy
> no matter how close a facsimile would still be a copy. Who wants a fake
> Rolex?

I think most designers like that approach but not all buyers are quite so
perceptive or care.

Cheers

John Winters
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