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From: Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Resistance in the real world
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:48:06 +0200
: My rule of thumb for average paddler capabilities is 0.1 hp, or 75 Watts 

(snip)

Interesting to consider using an electric motor to support your paddling,
say when wanting to move close to wildlife. There are lots of electric drives 
out there, some eminently useful on canoes and kayaks, but there is always 
the issue of endurance.

So in a double, we would want, to have reasonable performance, 150W power, and
could probably need 300W from the battery, counting all losses along the way, 
which are reasonable, if not optimistic. So with a 12V battery we'll draw 25 
A,
so a sizeable car battery is needed if you want an endurance over two hours!

But there is one situation where the extra weight (my 50Ah battery weighs 15 
kgs!) might come handy, and where an electric drive can be a real advantage, 
and that is when sailing a canoe/kayak, as most of them are pretty miserable 
tackers, unless you're a really good sailor! Then a little speed-holding with
the electric while tacking would be a grand boost, and the tacking would look 
so much more professional!

The time you need power is just a few seconds per tack, thus your battery will 
last for ever, almost - especially if you have a solar panel to charge it! 
And the extra weight stabilises the boat, too, if the battery is properly 
strapped to the bottom! So a win-win situation! And the battery can be used 
to power your bilge pump, too!


Yours,

Tord

PS I use a fourstroke, but that's another story!
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Resistance in the real world
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 04:10:37 -0700
From: "Tord Eriksson" <tord_at_tord.nu>

> The time you need power is just a few seconds per tack, thus your battery
will
> last for ever, almost - especially if you have a solar panel to charge it!
> And the extra weight stabilises the boat, too, if the battery is properly
> strapped to the bottom! So a win-win situation! And the battery can be used
> to power your bilge pump, too!

And don't forget, Tord, when all is said and done, and the battery is
discharged and worthless, its weight makes an excellent anchor!  [grin]

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: <Niilus_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Resistance in the real world
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 07:43:01 EDT
In a message dated 8/2/2004 3:49:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tord_at_tord.nu 
writes:


> and that is when sailing a canoe/kayak, as most of them are pretty 
> miserable 
> tackers, unless you're a really good sailor! Then a little speed-holding with
> the electric while tacking would be a grand boost, and the tacking would 
> look 
> so much more professional!
> 

My sailing kayaks often need a paddle assist to complete the tack, for that 
reason I prefer to jibe (aka gybe).  The greater mass and inertia of gear 
aboard a cruising boat makes the jibe risky but in a kayak with light gear it's 
smooth, quick, easy.

Tony Niilus
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Resistance in the real world
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:40:12 -0700
> My sailing kayaks often need a paddle assist to complete the tack, for
that
> reason I prefer to jibe (aka gybe).  The greater mass and inertia of gear
> aboard a cruising boat makes the jibe risky but in a kayak with light gear
it's
> smooth, quick, easy.
>
> Tony Niilus

I think paddle is more reliable device to assist in tacking, than
battery-powered motor :-).   For that kayak of yours that is more difficult
to tack with an aft mast - did you ever consider adding a fore strap-on
maststep (like in Spirit http://www.spiritsails.com/products.shtml , Part
223) with a small,  11-12 sq.ft V-sail like Spirit or Pacific Action
http://www.pacificaction.co.nz/barra1.htm or quadrilateral sail
http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/36/osdgl.html (using stap-on maststep
instead of hinge, of course)?
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From: Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Resistance in the real world
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:32:03 +0200
tony wrote:

>> and that is when sailing a canoe/kayak, as most of them are pretty 
>> miserable 
>> tackers, unless you're a really good sailor! Then a little speed-holding   
>> with
>> the electric while tacking would be a grand boost, and the tacking would 
>> look 
>> so much more professional!
>> 

> My sailing kayaks often need a paddle assist to complete the tack, for that 
> reason I prefer to jibe (aka gybe).  The greater mass and inertia of gear 
> aboard a cruising boat makes the jibe risky but in a kayak with light gear  
> it's smooth, quick, easy.

We found that out, too! But at times it can be helpful to tack, but as you 
note, there was no feeling of danger at all when we jibed (gybed)!

Tord
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From: <Niilus_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Resistance in the real world
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:35:24 EDT
In a message dated 8/2/2004 1:43:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, al.m_at_3web.net 
writes:
I think paddle is more reliable device to assist in tacking, than
battery-powered motor :-). 
Agreed, less clutter and stuff to bring along, just a couple of quick paddle 
strokes and the tack is completed.  I keep the paddle handy anyway.
  For that kayak of yours that is more difficult
to tack with an aft mast - did you ever consider adding a fore strap-on
maststep 
Not really on the K-1, just more stuff to bring along, it's easy to jibe or 
assist the tack with a paddle.  When I replied earlier I was thinking of my 
Klepper A2 which is schooner-rigged.

Tony Niilus
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Resistance in the real world
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:36:58 -0700
>a fore strap-on
> maststep
> Not really on the K-1, just more stuff to bring along, it's easy to jibe
or
> assist the tack with a paddle.  When I replied earlier I was thinking of
my
> Klepper A2 which is schooner-rigged.

Klepper A2 schooner already has enough masts, I think :-)... But with K-1
aft rig it's not only tacking that suffers, but upwind capability too, and
even, I suspect, downwind (a littel bit); probably because  rudder is used
more actively than with a fore mast.  On the other hand, mast and outrigger
12-13" aft of the cockpit is probably the only location that provides for
normal paddling strokes, with a greenland paddle, without having a sail in
your lap or catching a sail with a paddle. Regular 'Euro" paddle still bangs
against aft crossbar sometimes.  Aft masts closer to cockpit compromise
paddling significantly, as I've found, even with a GP. Technically, GP
should be pulled out when it reaches the hip, but in reality correction
strokes may be needed, or I don't always pay enough attention when pulling
it out.
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From: <Niilus_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Resistance in the real world
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 21:53:06 EDT
In a message dated 8/3/2004 12:44:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, al.m_at_3web.net 
writes:
But with K-1
aft rig it's not only tacking that suffers, but upwind capability too, and
even, I suspect, downwind (a littel bit); probably because  rudder is used
more actively than with a fore mast.  On the other hand, mast and outrigger
12-13" aft of the cockpit is probably the only location that provides for
normal paddling strokes, with a greenland paddle, without having a sail in
your lap or catching a sail with a paddle. 
This method, like most things, tends to be a compromise.  For raceing I might 
have done things differently, but since I sail alone and for my own pleasure 
I don't much care about optimum results.  If I wanted a real sailboat I'd get 
one.  A good solution would be something like the Triak with the mast forward 
of the cockpit, a daggerboard (not leeboard) mounted just aft of the mast, and 
the outriggers mounted well aft of the cockpit and clear of the paddle 
stroke.  To do this with a folding kayak would take so much work that it wouldn't 
make any sense.

Tony Niilus
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