There is a relatively simple way to do objective testing on paddles, in real conditions in a real kayak. You need an accurate knot meter on the hull, a heart meter or (even better) a air uptake meter, and a relatively windless day. Then you use either the heart rate monitor, or air uptake meter (this is a breath mask that measures the total air consumed) at a constant speed. The paddler must maintain exactly the same speed with the different paddles, and then he simply records his heart rate, or air consumption. The less work it is to maintain the same speed in the same hull, the lower the heart rate (or air intake). This would give relative efficiency of course, but would still yield a valid comparison. There would be no easy way to make a tank test yeild these kind of "real world" conditions. Several things that would be interesting to test this way would be to get a number of different paddlers, some in good shape, some not, some experienced paddlers, and some not so experienced, and those familiar with GP and those that use Euro paddles, male/female, etc., and see what the variations between them would be. It might be that the best efficiency with each paddle comes from using radically different stroke mechanics (this is a problem that would have to be extensively tested to see if this is significant, which I suspect it would be). It also might be that the same paddle shape and size is not most efficient for everyone. I would also suspect that the paddle that is most efficient at a given speed, may not be the one that is most efficient at another speed. So you would want to run the a lot of tests as several speeds to get a complete picture of what is happening with paddle shape, size, length, etc. It would interesting to build a set of "test" paddles that vary only one feature or aspect between each; for example, make several paddles with exactly the same shape, but different size. Or make them exactly the same cross section (foil shape), and the same area, but with different aspect ratios. This same test could be used to test hull designs as well (using the same paddle of course). I think the real problem with this is to make sure you have a big enough data base to know what you are actually measuring. Since so many things vary between different paddles, and different paddlers, you need a lot of tests to isolate the important features. The best stroke mechanics for one paddle would not be the best for another, which might lead to one to believe a less than optimum blade shape is better than another if you do not use the correct stroke mechanics with it. A simple flow test that I have thought of doing to help visualize the flow over the blade would be to tape short lengths of bright colored yarn or string on various places on the blade and go paddling with it. It would clearly demonstrate how much cordwise flow (if any) vs. lengthwise flow occurs over the blade. You would also get a good idea of when a blade stall occurs (and would likely quickly learn exactly what a blade stall feels like at the shaft when it does occurs). Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Chopelas, at constant HR, the paddler's power output would still vary with factors such as blood sugar concentration. PJ Gudac On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:52:28 -0700, Peter Chopelas <pac_at_premier1.net> wrote: > There is a relatively simple way to do objective testing on paddles, in real > conditions in a real kayak. You need an accurate knot meter on the hull, a > heart meter or (even better) a air uptake meter, and a relatively windless > day. Then you use either the heart rate monitor, or air uptake meter (this > is a breath mask that measures the total air consumed) at a constant speed. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is good science, but keep in mind the work done in cycling which has concluded there are stressors on the body which can be measured, but not by oxygen uptake. I sent out an email with links to some of this information a week or so ago. Also, I think these things must measure oxygen (input - output) being consumed rather than air intake. This is a little more sophisticated than just measuring volume of flow since oxygen and/or carbon dioxide content must be measured. Anyway, even if oxygen uptake is not the last word, it would be an improvement to all of our unsupported opinions flying back and forth. And at least put some stakes in the ground. To put this in a range achievable by us recreational kayakers (non pro kayakers), your suggestion of using a heart rate monitor is a good one that will represent oxygen uptake quite well until maximum aerobic uptake is approached, at which time the heart rate increase response flattens and your body start building oxygen deficit. I don't think any kayaking I have ever done comes remotely close to my maximums. Anyone know of a water proof heart rate monitor? Steve Brown -----Original Message----- ........ need an accurate knot meter on the hull, a heart meter or (even better) a air uptake meter, and a relatively windless day. Then you use either the heart rate monitor, or air uptake meter (this is a breath mask that measures the total air consumed) at a constant speed. ......... Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 16 Sep 2004 at 12:42, Steve Brown wrote: > Also, I think these things must measure oxygen (input - output) being > consumed rather than air intake. This is a little more sophisticated > than just measuring volume of flow since oxygen and/or carbon dioxide > content must be measured. O2 uptake would be much more meaningful than air intake. As well, you'd have to make the test long enough to eliminate the effects of anaerobic energy production. Yesterday, Adam van Koeverden, the K1 500m Olympic gold medalist, was a guest on a local radio station. He said that up to 100 seconds, the kayak race is just raw power and he could literally hold his breath. Over 100 seconds forces him to be more attentive to pace, since by that point, anaerobic energy production is mostly used up and lactic acid limits performance. I forget how long the two O2 uptake tests I took were, but it was something like 5-10 minutes. That means that you're looking at a course of over one kilometer for a recreational speed paddler and over 1500m for an elite athlete. Two to three kilometers might be useful for an advanced rec paddler. That will also allow enough time for minor kinks in technique to be averaged out. However, it does bring up the issue of repeatability in tests. I'd like to know how one measure energy out accurately. While a knotmeter and GPS combo can give decent speed estimates, they'd have to be integrated over time and compared to O2 uptake over time as well. Then you'd have to know the speed vs resistance characteristics of the hull. This time interval will make wind/wave characteristics harder to control. Great if you can get an indoor moving-water tank. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: >I forget how long the two O2 uptake tests I took were, but it was >something like 5-10 minutes. That means that you're looking at a >course of over one kilometer for a recreational speed paddler and >over 1500m for an elite athlete. Two to three kilometers might be >useful for an advanced rec paddler. > >That will also allow enough time for minor kinks in technique to be >averaged out. However, it does bring up the issue of repeatability >in tests. I'd like to know how one measure energy out accurately. >While a knotmeter and GPS combo can give decent speed estimates, >they'd have to be integrated over time and compared to O2 uptake over >time as well. Then you'd have to know the speed vs resistance >characteristics of the hull. > > I suspect that the most efficient distance to use would be one where the paddler can be most mechanical in his pace. If he/she tries to do this test (and repeated runs) at higher outputs, then it will be affected by the many little variables that aflict athletic performance. I know that runners, for example, can often measure distances within 5% or less when they run at particular speeds where their body just clicks into rhythm. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 17 Sep 2004 at 9:50, Gary J. MacDonald wrote: > I suspect that the most efficient distance to use would be one where > the paddler can be most mechanical in his pace. For me, that's a long paddle distance. > If he/she tries to do this test (and repeated runs) at higher outputs, > then it will be affected by the many little variables that aflict > athletic performance. True, but that will be influenced by training volume. The better the base, the better they will be at being consistent. Another variable... If, as Peter suggests, we only measure energy in/out and use that, we won't care about this as much. That's one advantage to his test proposal. However, the results will be dependent on kayak parameters that we don't know. > I know that runners, for example, can often measure distances within > 5% or less when they run at particular speeds where their body just > clicks into rhythm. I used to keep a training diary when I was a "serious" athlete (XC ski racing, running and bike racing). Being an engineer, at the end of a year of keeping the diary, I plotted the data and analysed it. I found that there was a significant variability - much more than 5%. I also had the info in the diary on how I felt during the training. Please allow me to doubt your claim :-) Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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