Ken Rasmussen replied (snip): >Racers use around 225 cm and paddle really fast. To me 225 can't be paddled very fast for very long--it too is a big gear, but it is fine for those who have developed the strength to use it. So why are recreational paddlers able to manage 230 and 240 centimeter paddles? They aren't managing. In a headwind they are pathetic. It is no wonder people are moving to Greenland Paddles. You've got to find a way out of high gear!!< I wonder what Chris Duff uses for a paddle, and what the spec's are. He can maintain 6 knots, an outrageous pace, for long periods of time I've heard. Unless, of course, much of this discussion is overshadowed by paddler ability. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ken Rasmussen wrote: >>>>Another way to reduce stress and increase cadence is to reduce the blade size. This decreases the efficiency of propulsion, but reduces strain.<<<<< Not nearly as effectively as reducing length but I think we've been around the block with this debate before. >>>>>The most remarkable demonstration I've ever seen of the principle was by a friend of mine who made the ultimate low stress paddle. It was amazingly short, amazingly small (the blades were the size of bread slices), and had a bend like a marathon canoe paddle. I tried it, and it felt broken, like there was nothing there. Three of us were paddling up a small river, into a stiff headwind. Naturally the fellow with the ridiculous paddle was last. As time went on he drew even with us, then he passed us, then he went out of sight ahead of us.<<<<< Yes, lower gear works better into strong headwinds because the winds keep the speed of the kayak in the water relatively low. Shifting to a lower gear can usually easily be accomplished by putting your hands further out on the paddle's shaft. >>>>>Paddle lengths have been decreasing, but people are still buying them too long. It goes with a very lethargic "slump back and paddle slow style", or with a macho "pull really hard on the paddle" mentality. Racers use around 225 cm and paddle really fast. To me 225 can't be paddled very fast for very long--it too is a big gear, but it is fine for those who have developed the strength to use it. So why are recreational paddlers able to manage 230 and 240 centimeter paddles? They aren't managing. In a headwind they are pathetic. It is no wonder people are moving to Greenland Paddles. You've got to find a way out of high gear!!<<<<< I agree, (except I think most racers are using shorter than 225cm) back in the late 1970's when I started sea kayaking from a WW kayaking background I moved up from about a 204 WW paddle to a 218cm paddle. when I tried 245cm (8') paddles that were mostly what was being sold to sea kayakers around here I had exactly the same response, way too high a gear. The long paddle forced me to go much slower because of the strain. Most customers were skeptical in those days when I'd suggest they get a 220cm paddle for paddling a single sea kayak but they have come around by now for the most part and a few smaller paddlers are even going down to 215 and 210cm (and can get away with it if the blade is a short one so doesn't hit the kayaks foredeck too easily at the start of the stroke). The following is from the "Paddling" manual on our website: Overall length is the major determiner of a paddle's "gear ratio." We prefer short blades so we can paddle in a lower gear (shorter paddle) and still have enough shaft length between the blades to clear the kayak's deck and completely bury the blade during the stroke. The longer shaft between the blades provides more room to move our hands around to either widen their grip spacing (which lowers "gears" even more for accelerating or stiff head winds) or to extend the paddle to one side as desired (for greater turning leverage--especially in strong winds). The shorter overall length also lowers the swing weight and shortens the lever arm a strong wind can act upon. >>>>>Regarding feather, I don't think you can paddle 90 degree feather without cocking the wrist.<<<<<<< Sure you can, I did it for years before switching to 75 degrees. You just have to drop the unnecessary "control hand" rules and control the paddle with whichever hand is near the water. >>>>>That is the reason why 75, 60, and 45 degree paddles came into existence. For me, 57 to 60 degrees of feather results in exactly the correct attitude of the non-control hand blade when I merely raise my control hand. On the control hand side I'm holding the paddle so that it is at the correct attitude as it enters the water with a straight wrist. I use very short paddles with a very high angle stroke. A different length of paddle and a different style of stroke might affect the choice of feather angle.<<<<<<<< This is what I wrote in the paddling manual: (Warning: avoid intermediate feather angles such as 45 degrees, while seductively nice to paddle with when it is calm they become unmanageable tyrants paddling into a strong wind. The blade in the air wants to dive down and the other lift up as you swing it forward. This problem goes away by about 70 degrees of feather). Paddlers who use unfeathered paddles should consider paddles with smaller than average paddle blades for less resistance in head winds. For more details read Matt's article detailing his paddle experiments in the Spring 1992 issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine (p.39). >>>>>>>For me, the only way to paddle with a straight wrist is to use a feathered paddle with 57 to 60 degrees of feather. Greater and lesser feather angles require accommodation with the wrists.<<<<<< No they don't. Not if you use "Low Hand Control" rather than right or left control. The following is from the "Paddling" manual on our website: All of the strokes and braces are the most powerful when you are pulling one arm back as though your forearm is a rope tied to the paddle by your fingers and your pushing hand pushes directly in line with your forearm and wrist. The paddle shaft, your wrist and your elbow should all be in a straight line with your elbow leading (when pulling) or pushing directly behind your hand much like making a straight punch. Any bend or angle at the wrist more commonly seen with the pushing arm) will weaken a strokes power and effectiveness. Think of it as giving your strokes and braces an added punch. Worse, bending your wrist either back or side to side can lead to repetitive stress injuries. To minimize the stress on your wrists do not bend the wrist back to "control" a feathered paddle (as is almost universally taught) and also hold the paddle with as loose a grip as you can. With any feather angle your wrists should also not bend side to side to follow the changing shaft angle throughout the stroke. In other words, the shaft should pivot in your hand and not bend your wrist as it rotates. This is important whether you paddle feathered or unfeathered. With any feather angle control the blade with the hand nearest the water and relax the upper hand so the paddle can rotate in the hand that is pushing. This way you dont bend your wrist when paddling feathered and you do not have to lift your elbow out like a boxers hook if you paddle unfeathered (to take out the 45 degree rotation you put on the blade by lifting the upper hand from your elbow). With any feather it is more efficient to push with your elbow starting at your side and the key to doing this is LOW HAND control. Tip: if you hold the paddle loosely between strokes the rotating moment you put on it while lifting can be used to spin it a little further into position without needing to bend your wrist at all. A good paddle will also make this adjustment to the angle if necessary as the blade enters the water. If you have to physically immobilize your wrists with braces or tape until you learn to paddle without bending them, do it.. They will thank you for it later. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: >>>>>I wonder what Chris Duff uses for a paddle, and what the spec's are. He can maintain 6 knots, an outrageous pace, for long periods of time I've heard.<<<<<< Not! Where did you get this information? Are you sure this isn't six kilometers per hour? If you had said Greg Barton and were talking about a narrow surf ski or Olympic Flatwater kayak on reasonably calm water I might have believed it. I'll bet Chris can't sprint a Romany Explorer faster than six knots for even fifty yards. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt replied: >Not! Where did you get this information? Are you sure this isn't six kilometres per hour? If you had said Greg Barton and were talking about a narrow surf ski or Olympic Flatwater kayak on reasonably calm water I might have believed it. I'll bet Chris can't sprint a Romany Explorer faster than six knots for even fifty yards.< I'm pretty sure I heard this as 6 knots from a reliable source, but it could have been 6 mph; however, I definitely don't remember the person saying 6 km/h. I took what the paddler told me at face value. It did seem high to me, but I didn't question the number, and didn't moderate it for the post as I purposely repeated it verbatim to the best of my memory; whatever speed Chris paddles at, I'm sure he out-distances most other paddlers we know and certainly anyone who attempts to expedition with him, the latter being empirically evident. Chris has been coming over to Victoria to do some instruction through a local paddling retailer/venue. I heard he likes to expedition paddle without his drysuit, even in cold waters, in order to maintain his fast pace (whatever that actual maximum sustainable speed is). I'm sure this could present a difficult situation and/or a bit of a dilemma for anyone trying to keep pace with him in a colder climate where there is a safety concern. My original comments weren't so much meant to highlight Chris's alleged pace, but rather indicate the fact that the man paddles fast, long and hard without a GP, yet appears to maintain joint/muscular integrity - and that in the context of fairly dramatic seas. I think we both know the preponderance of how much more effort it would take to propel a Romany for an extended pace above 5 knots. Probably twice the effort as 4 knots (just an unscientific guess). Maybe you and Cam could design one last kayak before retiring, one that paddles amazingly efficiently at 5 to 6 knots, yet retains seaworthiness in all conditions. But no copying an Aleut Baidarka. :-) >>>>>I wonder what Chris Duff uses for a paddle, and what the spec's are. He can maintain 6 knots, an outrageous pace, for long periods of time I've heard.<<<<<< Doug Lloyd (who has a world of respect for Chris, but thinks Chris is best paddling solo) Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 8 Sep 2004 at 18:42, Doug Lloyd wrote: > alleged pace, but rather indicate the fact that the man paddles fast, > long and hard without a GP, yet appears to maintain joint/muscular > integrity - and that in the context of fairly dramatic seas. This is usually done by choosing the right parents. :-) Some folks have unusually tough musculoskeletal systems. Others. like me, don't. I toasted my knees with bike racing and running many years ago. There's this American guy named Armstrong that keeps winning the Tour de France - you may have heard of him - unlike me, he obviously can handle cycling up lots of big hills. My family has joint problems - one example: arthritis is common and inherited. My grandmother, mother and older sister all had or have it. I'm not showing signs yet, though my knee problems mimic it. I'd bet you won't find much of that sort of thing in ole Lance's family tree. However, my mother's side of the family gives me lots of other genetic traits, like longevity, very little grey hair etc. Also, the family tree is honourable old French Canadian (Acadian) stock with First Nations blood mixed in, so I don't know if it would be a reasonable trade to have had a different mother just to get tougher joints. Besides, a different mother might have meant cycling into an auto accident due to so many more years on the road. Also, if I hadn't been forced to quit cycling, I'd have never taken up paddling. And just so it doesn't sound like I'm blaming my mother - I might have inherited the bad knees from my father's side. If you chose your parents well, enjoy your sports accordingly. If not, do what you can to alleviate problems and enjoy what paddling you can. Your family is what you're stuck with, so enjoy them if you can :-) Mike PS - it would seem that serious joint problems aren't too common for those that follow reasonable levels of activity. If you are showing signs of wear and tear - back off and enjoy it for more years. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9 Sep 2004 at 1:00, Michael Daly wrote: > On 8 Sep 2004 at 18:42, Doug Lloyd wrote: > > > alleged pace, but rather indicate the fact that the man paddles > > fast, long and hard without a GP, yet appears to maintain > > joint/muscular integrity - and that in the context of fairly > > dramatic seas. > > This is usually done by choosing the right parents. :-) BTW, I didn't mean to imply that genetics is the only contributing factor. There are many factors that can lead to problems with joints. However, if you start out with a prior genetic tendency towards problems, then you're stuck. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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