Over time these type of discussions come around and around without numbers that can be used to define the arguements. What speeds are talking about when dippers are delaying pullers? Longer-shorter: When using these paddle construction differences to reduce strain etc.-- what stroke rates are we talking about. I use a LONG paddle with a EURO blade that weighs 43 oz, which I have had for about 15 years. I paddle with elbows down! You may not remember that Ali fought with arms down, but somehow managed to generate adequate power to fight effectively. I paddle at about 43 strokes per minute, which drives the boat at 4.0-4.2 knots sustained. So you are able to go faster with a still shorter GP paddle? What speed and what stroke rate for what distance using what kind of plastic boat and what length of paddle with what blade wideth?? Were those speeds determined on still water in both directions on a course of known length? Listening to the radio lately, I've learned that the economy is booming!! Thanks, Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 5 Sep 2004 at 12:53, skimmer_at_enter.net wrote: > Were those speeds determined on still water in both directions on a > course of known length? I never get that technical when paddling. All I know is that the two of us that use both GPs and Euros in our regular paddling group can switch back and forth without having any problem keeping up with those who only use Euros. One thing about cadence, though: I've mentioned this before and have asked about it - my cadence is not any different when using the two paddle types. As well, when I match my cadence using a GP to others using Euros, I go the same speed as they do. I seriously question the claim that using a GP means a higher cadence. I also wonder if those with higher cadences are using a different technique than I. One very definite difference is in accelleration. When I use a GP, the Euro leaves me behind. Once up to speed, I have no problem keeping up. This was clearly demonstrated to me in a race this spring. We had to paddle backwards for about 100m and then paddle forwards back to the start line. I led a friend by a constant amount in the backwards leg. I hit the line first and immediately started powering forward. He arrived a couple of seconds later and, using his Euro, turned it on. By the time I was at maximum forward speed, he had made up the gap between us and moved a kayak length ahead. I matched his speed to the finish. If I had his accelleration to change direction, I'd have beat him. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think what we need is a tug of war between a Euro paddler and a Greenland advocate. May the best paddler win :-)) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 5 Sep 2004 at 13:31, Scott Hilliard wrote: > I think what we need is a tug of war between a Euro paddler and a > Greenland advocate. May the best paddler win :-)) That'll go to the Euro, since it has more "grab" and accelleration... assuming of course equal paddlers. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> paddle types. As well, when I match my cadence using a GP to others > using Euros, I go the same speed as they do. I seriously question > the claim that using a GP means a higher cadence. GP, how I understand it and trying to use, implies short strokes - underwater path of the blade is 20" or so. This is less than it is usually for Euro. So, for a GP and Euro with close blade areas maintaining close speeds should result in lower cadence for a Euro. In reality lower cadence for a Euro will also result from a higher energy consumption at each stroke, since stokes are longer. So from paddlers of same macho-ness the one with Euro will more likely keep his cadence lower :-). The only reservation - I didn't compare blade areas of "average" GP and "average" Euro. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 5 Sep 2004 at 20:25, alex wrote: > GP, how I understand it and trying to use, implies short strokes - > underwater path of the blade is 20" or so. This is less than it is > usually for Euro. This is not what I would assume. Euro paddles catch further forward and exit earlier than a GP, but I'm not so sure that the stroke length is so different. > So, for a GP and Euro with close blade areas > maintaining close speeds should result in lower cadence for a Euro. Not many Euro paddles are comparable in area to a GP. My GP has an area of around 80-85 sq. in. That's comparable to a CD Sabella - considered a small paddle among Euro paddles. Most Euro paddles are greater than 100 sq. in. and many are up to 120 or more. An example of a 100 sq. in. paddle is the Aquabound Expedition and my Lendal Archipelago is something around 110-120 (I forget exactly). The latter is one of the smallest Lendal blades! I just got back from paddling with the usual suspects. Two of us were using GPs and the other a Euro. We all had roughly the same tempo for the same speed. My GP technique is therefore presumably not so different than Keith's. As John F. commented, I do use a higher cadence when accelerating, but that's due to the GP's lesser power. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:55 PM 9/5/2004 -0400, Michael Daly wrote: >On 5 Sep 2004 at 12:53, skimmer_at_enter.net wrote: > > > Were those speeds determined on still water in both directions on a > > course of known length? > >I never get that technical when paddling. All I know is that the two >of us that use both GPs and Euros in our regular paddling group can >switch back and forth without having any problem keeping up with >those who only use Euros. > >One thing about cadence, though: I've mentioned this before and have >asked about it - my cadence is not any different when using the two >paddle types. As well, when I match my cadence using a GP to others >using Euros, I go the same speed as they do. I seriously question >the claim that using a GP means a higher cadence. I also wonder if >those with higher cadences are using a different technique than I. > >One very definite difference is in accelleration. When I use a GP, >the Euro leaves me behind. Once up to speed, I have no problem >keeping up. This was clearly demonstrated to me in a race this >spring. We had to paddle backwards for about 100m and then paddle >forwards back to the start line. I led a friend by a constant amount >in the backwards leg. I hit the line first and immediately started >powering forward. He arrived a couple of seconds later and, using >his Euro, turned it on. By the time I was at maximum forward speed, >he had made up the gap between us and moved a kayak length ahead. I >matched his speed to the finish. If I had his accelleration to >change direction, I'd have beat him. I was out yesterday playing around with cadence with my GP. I found that once I was at cruising speed that my cadence wasn't much different than when I use my euro paddle. When at cruising speed I'm not trying to generate a lot of power with each stroke but just paddling hard enough to maintain speed and an easy cadence with a GP seems plenty sufficient to do so. I also find that reverse paddling with a GP gives me plenty of speed. For generating power during acceleration starting with a few sliding strokes seems to get the boat moving and also really slows down the cadence. I also got a chance to paddle in one of Tom Yost designs yesterday. A local just finished building it and doesn't have much paddling experience so I was showing him a few things with a GP. When we were going over bracing I kept on trying to get him to do a more vigorous hip snap and he just didn't seem to be getting it. When I paddled his boat I discovered that the boat just doesn't snap up as easy as my Outer Island. Part of the problem was that the "skin" on the foredeck isn't real tight so water would pile up on the deck when the boat was edged. It felt very different from my boat. I haven't paddled folding boats much so it took quite awhile to get used to the flex in the hull. John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu Ithaca, NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm the "dipper" vs "paddler" (puller) guy, so I'll respond to that part only: Typical speeds for doubles: 4.0 knots cruise, probably, although if only one is dipping, I bet the speed is more like 3.0 knots. None of these speeds is measured, only estimated from my effort expended alongside in my single hardshell. Most of the dipping I witnessed was in massive, heavily loaded Easy Rider decked canoes, more fleet than I would have expected. Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: <skimmer_at_enter.net> > What speeds are talking about when dippers are delaying pullers? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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