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From: Bob Carter <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:43:38 -0900
            Even before the tragic events in South Asia I have long given
thought to tsunami waves and kayaking. Here in Alaska I have twice been
evacuated from my house to high ground because of the fear that an earthquake
had generated a tsunami. Neither quake created a wave but we were not about to
take the chance.

            As paddlers maybe a good discussion about tsunamis might be in
order.

            First most tsunamis are created by an earthquake, or land slide
either above or below the sea. The great tsunami at Lituya Bay (1400 foot
wave) was caused by a combination of an earthquake and a land slide.

            If you are on the sea or the beach an earthquake is an ominous
sign. I have had friends who have been on the water in power boats during
earthquakes. They described the water as getting "weird or strange". Rather
than regular waves the water seemed to be bouncing about them with irregular
pyramid waves rising up everywhere. They also reported feeling queasy or like
something was wrong but they did not know what. They also described the
shoreline as well as the trees and glaciers undulating!

            If I were in a kayak and felt a quake I would head for deep water
instead of the land. If this seems the wrong thing to do then let me explain
why I would not head to shore.           The size of a tsunami depends on a
mathematical formula measuring wave height and the depth of the sea. In deep
water the tsunami may appear just like another swell, but in shallow water the
wave would suddenly rise up and wreaks havoc. At least in Alaskan the bottom
of the ocean drops off quickly giving the paddler a chance to get to deep
water.

            If I am actually feeling the quake, the wave it generated would
arrive quickly and I would probably not have time to make it to shore. The
Lituya wave hit the fishing boats in Lituya Bay within minutes of the quake.

            Remember though you may not feel the quake even on land. The
actual quake may have been many, many miles away. Tsunamis can travel
thousands of miles at great speed.

            If there is a tsunami warning the Coast guard will alert mariners
via channel 16 of the VHF radio. However you have to have you VHF on to hear
it and most of us do not leave our radios on all the time.

            One of the signs of a tsunami is the tide goes out real far and
real quick. Off shore I would presume that the current would begin to speed up
and the water would start to "look weird".  Paddling straight to shore I
probably could not be able to overcome the current and by the time I got to
shore the wave would be there.

            One of the most important things to remember is that a tsunami can
actually be a series of waves rather than one. Going ashore after the first
wave passes may place you in greater danger. If you do plan to land I would
"hit the ground running " and head for the hills. Yes that means abandoning
gear but gear is only good to you if you are still alive. Sometimes quakes
destabilize the undersea topography and delayed slides can occur, not to
mention quake after shocks, creating more waves.

            If you are camping along the shore, or hiking, bathroom break or
what ever and you see the tide rush out then head for the hills. Forget trying
to carry your boat to safety. You may barely have time to save your self.
Tsunamis have gotten many people who have wandered down to the beach to check
out the "real low tide". Watching the old movies of the wave that hit Valdez
Alaska in 1964, tsunamis move a lot faster than any of us can run. Also
survivors report the tsunami sounding like a freight train or a big roar. If
you are a sleep and dream you hear a train out on the ocean "run!"

            Sometimes tsunamis don't come as a wave but as an extremely high
tide. The '64 quake lifted the tide 5 to 10 feet above normal in places here
in Southeast Alaska. So an unusual or extreme high tide should be taken as a
dire warning.

            I realize this is not very entertaining reading but the fact is
that tsunamis do occur. Surviving one I would think would probably have more
to do with luck (out in deep water as opposed to taking a pee break on shore
when the wave hit.) than any thing else. I doubt that our paddling skill would
hold up long if we got caught but a tsunami but I would hope I would "die
trying".

            One more thing. In the event of a tsunami all Paddlewise
restrictions on prayer and religion are hereby suspended. Sorry could resist a
little humor in the midst of such a sober discussion.



Bob
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From: Steve Brown <steve_at_brown-web.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:14:32 -0800
Bob,

I found the whole email a little boring (sorry) until I got to this
paragraph and busted out laughing. Made reading the whole thing more than
worthwhile!

Steve Brown
 

-----Original Message-----
..........
            One more thing. In the event of a tsunami all Paddlewise
restrictions on prayer and religion are hereby suspended..........



Bob
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From: Steve Brown <steve_at_brown-web.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis - poorly exictued humor
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 05:17:40 -0800
All,

My response was meant as humorous and to congratulate him on a great punch
line. Also meant for him only. 

Unfortunately my pea sized brain managed to direct my mouse to the send
button before directing it to remove the paddlewise email address.

Steve Brown
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From: Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:13:32
At 07:43 PM 12/27/04 -0900, Bob Carter wrote:
>            Even before the tragic events in South Asia I have long given
>thought to tsunami waves and kayaking. Here in Alaska I have twice been

It strikes me that several years ago we had a Paddlewiser by the name of
Dave (last name unsure) that was involved in a sea kayaking business in
Phuket, Thailand.

I've found myself thinking about him several times in the last couple days.

-- Wes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear
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From: Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:31:39 -0500
I was trying to remember his name as well. I tried to do a search of my 
old emails because we had a couple back-channel conversations, but 
could not find anything. He was quite active on paddlewise for a while.

On Dec 29, 2004, at 12:13 PM, Wes Boyd wrote:

> At 07:43 PM 12/27/04 -0900, Bob Carter wrote:
>>            Even before the tragic events in South Asia I have long 
>> given
>> thought to tsunami waves and kayaking. Here in Alaska I have twice 
>> been
>
> It strikes me that several years ago we had a Paddlewiser by the name 
> of
> Dave (last name unsure) that was involved in a sea kayaking business in
> Phuket, Thailand.
>
> I've found myself thinking about him several times in the last couple 
> days.
Nick Schade

Guillemot Kayaks
824 Thompson St
Glastonbury, CT 06033
USA
Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/
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From: PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>
subject: [Paddlewise] Dave Williams was Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:51:38 +1100
Wes wrote: -
>several years ago we had a Paddlewiser by the name
>of Dave (last name unsure) that was involved in a
>sea kayaking business in Phuket, Thailand.
SNIP
>I tried to do a search of my old emails because
>we had a couple back-channel conversations, but
>could not find anything.
SNIP
Nick wrote: -
>I was trying to remember his name as well.


G'day Wes, Dave and Paddlewise,

Here's the link to Dave's Who's Who entry -
http://www.paddlewise.net/whoswho/whoswho9b.html if you search under Dave
Williams you will find his details. Let me know if you have any difficulty.
If you do get in touch with him I would appreciate knowing if he is OK.

All the best, PeterO
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From: PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Dave Williams was Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:38:20 +1100
G'day Wes and Nick,

My apologies I ascribed your comments incorrectly they should have read: -

Wes wrote: -
>several years ago we had a Paddlewiser by the name
>of Dave (last name unsure) that was involved in a
>sea kayaking business in Phuket, Thailand.

Nick wrote:
>I was trying to remember his name as well.
>I tried to do a search of my old emails because
>we had a couple back-channel conversations, but
>could not find anything.


G'day Wes, Nick and Paddlewise,

Here's the link to Dave's Who's Who entry -
http://www.paddlewise.net/whoswho/whoswho9b.html if you search under: Dave
or Williams or Phuket, you will find his details. Let me know if you have
any difficulty. If you do get in touch with him I would appreciate knowing
if he is OK.

All the best, PeterO
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From: Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:32:50 -0500
On Dec 29, 2004, at 12:13 PM, Wes Boyd wrote:
>
> It strikes me that several years ago we had a Paddlewiser by the name 
> of
> Dave (last name unsure) that was involved in a sea kayaking business in
> Phuket, Thailand.


Is this him: http://www.paddleasia.com/leaders.htm ?

Nick Schade

Guillemot Kayaks
824 Thompson St
Glastonbury, CT 06033
USA
Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/
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From: <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:35:39 -0600 (CST)
> It strikes me that several years ago we had a Paddlewiser by the name of
> Dave (last name unsure) that was involved in a sea kayaking business in
> Phuket, Thailand.
>
> I've found myself thinking about him several times in the last couple
> days.
>
> -- Wes

Me, too. I sent a message about him and John Gray this morning, but I
might not have replied to "all." I haven't heard anything about either.

John "Caveman" Gray was a member of Paddlewise's predecessor Wavelength
who had an ecotour kayaking business in Phuket a few years ago. Dave
Williams was his assistant who, I think, later started or joined a rival
ecotour kayaking business in Phuket. He was still there and a member of
Paddlewise on 9/11. Gray was pretty upset with the competition in Phuket
last I heard, and might have moved on, but I don't really know.

I hope they are all right, but the tsunami struck at a time when they
might have been on the beach organizing their tour groups or even already
on the water.

I wonder if there is a warning system in the Atlantic? Some scientists
have worried that a large chunk of volcano in the Canaries (I think) could
catastrophically slide into the ocean, creating a similar or even greater
tsunami around the Atlantic.

Chuck Holst
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From: Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] delayed postings was tsunami
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:57:48 -0500
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:35:39 -0600 (CST), cholst_at_bitstream.net said:

> Me, too. I sent a message about him and John Gray this morning, but I
> might not have replied to "all." I haven't heard anything about either.

Long ago Mr. Gray and Mr. Williams made a few posts too close to the
commercial boundary so they got into the filters.  

I've removed all of the filters which I noticed with regard to the two
based in Thailand.

I heard one news story from a Thailand tourist who had been saved by her
kayak tour guide.  I was hopeing it was someone we knew doing the
rescueing....

I recently took a new job, I'm not moderating the list from my new job,
so any posts that hit the filters will be delayed until I get home. 
Hence Chuck's and quite a few others, being delayed until a few minutes
ago.


Kirk
-- 
  Kirk Olsen
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From: Michael Neverdosky <mikenever_at_earthlink.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:25:24 -0500
cholst_at_bitstream.net wrote:

> I wonder if there is a warning system in the Atlantic? Some scientists
> have worried that a large chunk of volcano in the Canaries (I think) could
> catastrophically slide into the ocean, creating a similar or even greater
> tsunami around the Atlantic.
> 
> Chuck Holst

I think it is La Cumbre Vieha (spelling???) on La Palma.
They are saying that it is only a question of when, not if.
When the volcano splits the wave that makes landfall on the east coast 
of the USA would be something like 300-500 meters high.

I don't think anyone can really see how bad that would be.
I sure can't.

michael

---
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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_rockandwater.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:54:24 -0500
> I think it is La Cumbre Vieha (spelling???) on La Palma.
> They are saying that it is only a question of when, not if.
> When the volcano splits the wave that makes landfall on the east coast 
> of the USA would be something like 300-500 meters high.
> 
> I don't think anyone can really see how bad that would be.
> I sure can't.

And you're not alone: the problem is that catastrophic geologic events
are rare on human timescales and thus largely outside our perception.
And so are the much slower/long-lived events that happen every day.

Consider "glacial rebound": small intermittment upward crust movements
that are still observed around here (North America) sporadically as
the crust returns to its "original" position -- now that the enormous
weight of the ice has been removed from it.

I'm vaguely accustomed to thinking about these kind of extra-experiential
events because of my background in physics: but concepts as diverse as
nanoseconds or 100 million years are still hard to wrap one's brain
around because they're just so utterly foreign.  I think it takes a genius
on the order of a Feynman or a Hawking or equivalent to truly comprehend
these sorts of things.

And that rules out just about all of us. ;-)

But a 300m-500m wave impacting the US east coast?  Yow.  I think you'd see
destruction as far inland as the Appalachians: everything on the coastal plain
would be gone.  It would probably be the largest catastrophe, in terms of
loss of human life, in recorded history.

Heck, might as well jump in the boat and try to surf it: no point in running. ;-)

---Rsk
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From: <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:38:13 -0600 (CST)
I found John Gray's Web site at http://johngray-seacanoe.com/. It looks
like he has branched out to other areas, though he still maintains (or
maintained) an operation in Phuket.

Chuck Holst
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From: <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:50:17 -0600 (CST)
Dave Williams' Web site is at http://paddleasia.com/index.htm. His company
was scheduled to lead some tours in Phang Nga Bay this week. He and his
family lived a short distance from Phuket, probably near the sea.

Chuck Holst
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:59:30 -0800
Yeah, I think he went by Caveman.  I believe he was one of the first 
outfitters to develop tours in the limestone caves/formations down there. 
Hope he is OK.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wes Boyd" <boydwe_at_dmci.net>

> It strikes me that several years ago we had a Paddlewiser by the name of
> Dave (last name unsure) that was involved in a sea kayaking business in
> Phuket, Thailand.
>
> I've found myself thinking about him several times in the last couple days. 
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From: Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:14:52 -0500
I emailed Dave Williams yesterday on the off chance he could check his 
email. I got this in reply:

> All of us at PaddleAsia are fine.  We had a close call in Trang though.
> Two guests were slammed into the rocks by the first wave.  Our guide,
> Gai, got them safely to the bungalows.  They were bumped and scrapped 
> up
> a bit, but not too bad.
>
> Moo (my wife) and I were in Khao Sok National Park for the past ten
> days.  We had no idea that this tragedy was of this magnitude.  There
> are still unknown numbers of missing tourists and locals.
>
> Some beaches on the west side of Phuket were absolutely demolished,
> while others were spared.  Unfortunately, the ones that were hit just
> happened to be the most populated.
>
> On the morning of this monumental day, I was with nine guests watching
> gibbons high up in a tree.  Suddenly, the water in one small area in 
> the
> back of the cove started shifting back and forth rapidly.  A breaking
> wave raced across the surface.  I had no idea that this was related to
> the earthquake.  No water anywhere else was doing this.  It was one of
> the strangest things I've ever seen.  I didn't know that shortly after
> this, unknown numbers of people would be killed or injured.
>
> If you wish to help, you are welcome to send the money to our account.
> We will donate this money at the community level.
>
> Bank Detail:
>
> Bank of Ayudhya Public Company Limited
> Swift Telex code: AYUDTHBK
> Account number: 356-1-18634-8
> Account type: Savings account
> Thepkrasatri Road Branch
> Tel: +66 76 222183 or +66 76 222301
> Account name: PaddleAsia Co. Ltd.
>
> Please pass this info onto the Paddlewise group.  Countless families 
> are
> now left with absolutely nothing.  Their businesses are demolished and
> most were uninsured.  They are the lucky ones as they are at least 
> still
> alive.  As a large number of the victims were children, I can hardly
> talk.  Further words fail me at the moment.
>
> Thank you ever so much for your concern.
>
> All the best,
> Dave

I asked him if he had any contact with Caveman:

> Hi Nick,
>
> I just got back from a visit to Patong. I wanted to see if I could help
> in any way.  I was amazed at how much was already cleaned up.  I was
> also confused by how many buildings that are right on the beach managed
> to stay in tact.
>
> To the north of Phuket, lies Khao Lak, Takua Pa and some small Thai
> villages that have suffered greatly.  My son in law went up there this
> morning to help and the Royal Thai Navy is finishing up its work in
> Phuket and they plan on heading north shortly.
>
> I haven't been in touch with John Gray for many years.  He runs a
> company called John Gray Sea Canoe now and they still do the hong trip.
>
> All the best,
> Dave

Nick Schade

Guillemot Kayaks
824 Thompson St
Glastonbury, CT 06033
USA
Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/
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From: Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunami - donations.
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:26:01 -0500
If anyone wants to use Dave Williams to get financial aid directly to
the Thai community they do so on their own, not with "ownership" of
paddlewise's endorsement.  We've simply never had any dealings with Dave
so we haven't the slightest idea how or where money's would be spent.
Dave's contact info, from Nick's posting follows.

I'm sure everyone on the list has their own favorite charities.  For
those in need of a little direction...

http://www.charitynavigator.org seems to be a decent site for reviewing
potential charities.

They have a link to a tsunami specific charity list:
http://tinyurl.com/57lez or unshortened - http://www.network-
forgood.org/topics/international/earthquake/tsunami122604.aspx

Some of the websites point out that if you want to be sure your funds go
for specific catastrophe you need to designate that on the check.  It
would be nice if the online charity I used the other day had had such a
field on their website donation page....

Kirk paddlewise admin


On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:14:52 -0500, "Nick Schade" <nick_at_guillemot-
kayaks.com> said:
> I emailed Dave Williams yesterday on the off chance he could check his
> email. I got this in reply:
>
> > All of us at PaddleAsia are fine.  We had a close call in Trang
> > though.

> > If you wish to help, you are welcome to send the money to our
> > account. We will donate this money at the community level.
> >
> > Bank Detail:
> >
> > Bank of Ayudhya Public Company Limited Swift Telex code: AYUDTHBK
> > Account number: 356-1-18634-8 Account type: Savings account
> > Thepkrasatri Road Branch Tel: +66 76 222183 or +66 76 222301 Account
> > name: PaddleAsia Co. Ltd.
> >
> > Please pass this info onto the Paddlewise group.
-- 
  Kirk Olsen
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:51:00 -0800
Michael, that figure of 300 - 500 meters for the wave height predicted when 
the volcano in the Canaries splits ...  is that a typo?  If not, where did 
the figure come from?

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Michael Neverdosky" <mikenever_at_earthlink.net>
> cholst_at_bitstream.net wrote:
>
>> I wonder if there is a warning system in the Atlantic? Some scientists
>> have worried that a large chunk of volcano in the Canaries (I think) could
>> catastrophically slide into the ocean, creating a similar or even greater
>> tsunami around the Atlantic.

> I think it is La Cumbre Vieha (spelling???) on La Palma.
> They are saying that it is only a question of when, not if.
> When the volcano splits the wave that makes landfall on the east coast of 
> the USA would be something like 300-500 meters high. 
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From: Michael Neverdosky <mikenever_at_earthlink.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:12:40 -0500
Not a typo 300-500 meters, 1000-1600 FEET.
I got it from a show on Discovery channel. They were showing how the 
inside of the volcano has vertical walls of hard rock with rubble in 
between and the spaces are filling with water. A big eruption will boil 
the water and split the mountain.

One of those 'geologic time' things. No telling when in a human time frame.

michael

Dave Kruger wrote:
> Michael, that figure of 300 - 500 meters for the wave height predicted 
> when the volcano in the Canaries splits ...  is that a typo?  If not, 
> where did the figure come from?
> 
> -- 
> Dave Kruger
> Astoria, OR
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Neverdosky" <mikenever_at_earthlink.net>
> 
>> cholst_at_bitstream.net wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder if there is a warning system in the Atlantic? Some scientists
>>> have worried that a large chunk of volcano in the Canaries (I think) 
>>> could
>>> catastrophically slide into the ocean, creating a similar or even 
>>> greater
>>> tsunami around the Atlantic.
> 
> 
>> I think it is La Cumbre Vieha (spelling???) on La Palma.
>> They are saying that it is only a question of when, not if.
>> When the volcano splits the wave that makes landfall on the east coast 
>> of the USA would be something like 300-500 meters high. 

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From: Carey Parks <cparks_at_fuse.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:20:11 -0500
Here's a link I just searched up... "only" 130 - 164 ft, and travel 4 to 5
miles inland in Florida. Makes one shudder to think of it.

http://www.rense.com/general13/tidal.htm

Carey

-----Original Message-----

Michael, that figure of 300 - 500 meters for the wave height predicted when
the volcano in the Canaries splits ...  is that a typo?  If not, where did
the figure come from?

--
Dave Kruger

> I think it is La Cumbre Vieha (spelling???) on La Palma.
> They are saying that it is only a question of when, not if.
> When the volcano splits the wave that makes landfall on the east coast of
> the USA would be something like 300-500 meters high.
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From: Michael Neverdosky <mikenever_at_earthlink.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:02:12 -0500
Carey Parks wrote:
> Here's a link I just searched up... "only" 130 - 164 ft, and travel 4 to 5
> miles inland in Florida. Makes one shudder to think of it.
> 
> http://www.rense.com/general13/tidal.htm
> 

Perhaps I am a bit confused. Some say I am more than a 'bit'.  :)

I was sure they were talking much larger.

I wonder how much would be left on Long Island after a wave of only 150'?

michael


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From: Bill Haller <haller_at_adelphia.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:09:16 -0500
On Thursday, December 30, 2004, at 01:02  AM, Michael Neverdosky wrote:

> I was sure they were talking much larger.
>

The size would depend on where (when) you measured it. The link below 
is to a BBC transcript which describes the discovery of mega-tsunami 
(including someone riding a boat over one and living to tell the 
tale!). From this transcript:

"Narrator: If this island collapses it would create a mega-tsunami that 
would race across the Atlantic and hit the east coast of the United 
States.  Every city on the shoreline would be destroyed.  From New York 
in the north to Miami in the south.  The wave would wreak havoc for as 
much as 20 kilometres inland. "


"HERMANN FRITZ: If the Cumbre Vieja were to collapse as one single 
block it would create a giant mega-tsunami with an initial wave height 
of 650 metres and a wavelength of 30-40 kilometres travelling westwards 
across the Atlantic with speeds up to 720 kilometres an hour towards 
America. "

Link to transcript:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/mega_tsunami_transcript.shtml

- Bill Haller
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From: Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:45:34 -0800
The following link has some good information on how Tsunamis form, travel,
and what happens when they get to land.
http://www.geophys.washington.edu/tsunami/general/physics/physics.html

I was watching a special on the Weather Channel the other day that mentioned
that the height of most Tsunami's in deep water on the open ocean is only
about 10 - 20 cm. As a result on a boat, you wouldn't even know it. However,
the wave is traveling at speeds of up to 400 mph and the wave length can be
200 miles. That is a lot of water! When it reaches the shallow water at
shore, it will typically rise to a wave height of 10 - 30 meters.

The energy involved together with the physical volume of water, appears to
be what causes all of the damage.

Steve Holtzman
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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_rockandwater.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:52:13 -0500
On Thu, Dec 30, 2004 at 08:45:34AM -0800, Steve Holtzman wrote:
> The energy involved together with the physical volume of water, appears to
> be what causes all of the damage.

Exactly.  The URL you referenced has a good explanation of this: it's
all about the energy.  Sure, (as that site says) some of it will be
reflected back out as the wave reaches shore, and some will be dissipated
in turbulence, but most of it will be carried onshore in the wave(s).

It's got to go somewhere.  Conservation of energy says it can't just vanish.
And if you do just a back-of-the-envelope-grade calculation of the amount
of energy involved, you'll need a lot of zeros.

(Which is why the goober on CNN yesterday blabbing about "defending" from
tsunamis needs a course in basic physics.  You don't "defend" from things
like this.  The best you can hope for is enough warning to get far, far away.)

---Rsk
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From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:59:31 -0500
At 01:52 PM 12/30/2004 -0500, Rich Kulawiec wrote:

>(Which is why the goober on CNN yesterday blabbing about "defending" from
>tsunamis needs a course in basic physics.  You don't "defend" from things
>like this.  The best you can hope for is enough warning to get far, far away.)

Which, in the case of some of the countries effected by the recent tsunami 
may involved major changes in infrastructure and availability of mass 
public transportation.  Even if an advance notification system was in 
place, those in Sri Lanka only had 2 hours to get to a "safe" place.  I can 
only imagine what kind of chaos would have taken place if they had known 
that a tsunami would hit land in two hours.

John Fereira
jaf30_at_cornell.edu
Ithaca, NY
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:19:58 -0800
"Steve Holtzman" <sh_at_actglobal.net>  wrote:

> The following link has some good information on how Tsunamis form, travel,
> and what happens when they get to land.
> http://www.geophys.washington.edu/tsunami/general/physics/physics.html

This is a great resource.  I found the video clip particularly useful (the 
larger clip is much better).  It illustrates that tsunami waves hit land as 
massive surges, and not as the Hollywood-style "breaking wave" of B-grade 
flicks.  These surges are pretty similar in form (but not magnitude!) to what 
passing freighters induce when they pass a shoreline that shallows gradually 
from the much deeper water of a shipping channel.  I have been surprised by 
these surges several times on the Columbia River.  Some are powerful enough 
to sweep a small child off her feet, and to "plant" small boats 2-3 vertical 
feet above the ambient water level.

Where I live (NW coast of Oregon), there is considerable awareness of 
tsunamis/subduction zone earthquakes because the offshore subduction zone 
pops a magnitude 8.0 - 9.0 quake every 300 - 700  (+/-) years.  The quake and 
tsunami are not the entire story, however; along with the quake, there is a 
sudden drop of the near-shore earth's surface, typically about a meter or so, 
which permanently lowers the surrounding land ... flooding near-shore 
lowlands.  These drops are superimposed on the long-term gradual rise of this 
edge of the continent, so that the record of these tsunami/quake events is 
permanently captured in the sediments of marshes in larger bays, and has been 
much studied by geologists, including Brian Atwater of the USGS, and Curt 
Peterson or Portland State University.  Typically, the inundation and drop in 
land level "drown" spruce trees, and geologists have been able to document 
the frequency (but not the magnitude) of these tsunamis.

This story is pretty well know locally; several communities have tsunami 
warning systems, and roadside signs directing folks to "tsunami safe" zones. 
(Never mind that the road systems would not be able to handle the traffic 
jams inherent in an event that would give us only about 20-30 minutes of 
warning.  Life is risky ... and then you die!)

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR 
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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_rockandwater.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:13:08 -0500
On Thu, Dec 30, 2004 at 08:45:34AM -0800, Steve Holtzman wrote:
> I was watching a special on the Weather Channel the other day that mentioned
> that the height of most Tsunami's in deep water on the open ocean is only
> about 10 - 20 cm. As a result on a boat, you wouldn't even know it. However,
> the wave is traveling at speeds of up to 400 mph and the wave length can be
> 200 miles. That is a lot of water! When it reaches the shallow water at
> shore, it will typically rise to a wave height of 10 - 30 meters.

BTW, and I should have mentioned this in my earlier followup: this snippet
gives one way to appreciate the incredible amount of energy being unleashed.

The kinetic energy of a mass M moving at velocity V is 1/2 MV^2  (one-half
times M times V-squared).  Consider a V on the order of 400 MPH as mentioned
above: V-squared will be huge.

Now consider that the wave decelerates as it comes onshore.  Sure, some of
the energy will be dissipated in losses (friction, turbulence, etc.) but a
large chunk of it won't be.  So...if V decreases by a lot, say by a factor
of 10, but the energy doesn't just disappear (and it doesn't), then that
means that M has to grow by enough to compensate...and that means a very
large M will be involved.  (e.g. if the velocity decreases by a factor of
10, then the mass increases by a factor of 100)

BTW: this is a _very_ crude way of looking at the problem, but I figured
that trying to get into hydrodynamics is probably not necessary: doubly so
when all these antiseptic calculations don't begin to hint at the human
tragedy which is still taking place as all of us sit wherever we are today.

--Rsk
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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_rockandwater.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:10:11 -0500
Apologies for following up my own note, but:

	DigitalGlobe: Quickbird Images of Tsunami Sites
	http://www.digitalglobe.com/tsunami_gallery.html


--Rsk
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From: John Winters <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:35:10 -0400
Doug wrote;

(BTW, John, remember the east coast of Canada isn't immune from tsunamis).

Living here is worth the risk. People frighten me more than tsunamis because 
I encounter them everyday and they are less predictable than natural 
disasters and frequently more violent.

I got a chuckle out of Bob's comment about prayer and tsunamis. Reminded me 
of Father Cummings who said "There are no atheists in the foxholes."

Supposedly a GI responded "If God listened to prayers I wouldn't be in this 
foxhole." Probably apocryphal but still amusing.

Also an insurance agent who had a sign on the wall that said "Trust in God 
but insure with Prudential".

Cheers

John Winters
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From: Bob Carter <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:12:56 -0900
Nick,
thanks for getting the good news to us about Dave.

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Schade" <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tsunamis


>I emailed Dave Williams yesterday on the off chance he could check his 
>email. I got this in reply:
>
>> All of us at PaddleAsia are fine.
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