Hi Davekru, I mentioned the possibility of one of these awhile back in a discussion about the inevitable broach, and typically it seems that someone else already is using one. You said you did not think that it was a good idea, due to stress put on kayak, and also entanglement threat. Am I understanding from this post that they infact work? TnT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/31/2004 7:36:34 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, kdruger_at_pacifier.com writes: I think I can imagine what a surf drogue is, but tell us more, especially when/how you would use it. I would use it to get someone else through surf, not myself. The drogue, when attached to the stern will keep the boat perpendicular to the wave. It will also slow the boat down. The chute on mine is about 12 inches in diameter and has a line of about 9 feet. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:45 AM 12/31/2004 -0500, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 12/31/2004 7:36:34 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, >kdruger_at_pacifier.com writes: > >I think I can imagine what a surf drogue is, but tell us more, especially >when/how you would use it. > > > >I would use it to get someone else through surf, not myself. The drogue, when >attached to the stern will keep the boat perpendicular to the wave. It will >also slow the boat down. The chute on mine is about 12 inches in diameter and >has a line of about 9 feet. John Dowd's book has almost an entire chapter dedicated to when/how to use a drogue. John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu Ithaca, NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/31/2004 10:40:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: John Dowd's book has almost an entire chapter dedicated to when/how to use a drogue. Most of what he writes (4th Edition) concerns a Sea Anchor, sometimes also called a drogue. Does the recent edition say anymore? He does mentions its use as a device to enter surf but then writes little afterward. A sea anchor is for reducing drift and keeping pointed to the weather. I think Duane has one. I wonder if he's ever used it. My surf drogue is purely used for clipping on to a stern to prevent broaching or impaling boats downstream. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob, I have the Drift Stopper, which has a deployment and retrieval system. I practiced with it in moderate winds years ago, but I've always been too much of a minimalist to bring it paddling or on trips since then. I actually plan to sell it. Duane Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/31/2004 10:40:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: John Dowd's book has almost an entire chapter dedicated to when/how to use a drogue. Most of what he writes (4th Edition) concerns a Sea Anchor, sometimes also called a drogue. Does the recent edition say anymore? He does mentions its use as a device to enter surf but then writes little afterward. A sea anchor is for reducing drift and keeping pointed to the weather. I think Duane has one. I wonder if he's ever used it. My surf drogue is purely used for clipping on to a stern to prevent broaching or impaling boats downstream. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tom, the drogue is what I thought it was. I would not use one for the reasons you mention, but Rob indicates a drogue is one of the options (but not for him). I'd rather be swimming and have my kayak free of me than have the drogue line, me, and my kayak mixed up in surf. Rob has much more experience in surf than I do, so could be he has ways to minimize the hazard. I could learn from that. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "TSG" <tnksng_at_qwest.net> > Hi Davekru, I mentioned the possibility of one of these awhile back in a > discussion about the inevitable broach, and typically it seems that someone > else already is using one. You said you did not think that it was a good > idea, due to stress put on kayak, and also entanglement threat. Am I > understanding from this post that they infact work? TnT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'd never even heard of a surf drogue before this posting yet alone thought that you would want to deploy such a thing in the surf. The thought of having a mass of cord and material chasing me down a wave (which is surely what it would do once you are through a break zone) fills me with horror. Also a scenario where it holds you in the dumping break instead of getting washed through it could result in a repeated and way ugly trashing even in small waves. Not to mention I wouldn't like to have to rescue someone entangled in the thing. What's wrong with a broach anyway? That's just what kayaks do and trying to use a parachute to make them run straight is just unnatural. Skills like ruddering, brace / support and a reliable combat roll is the go. I worry that substituting basic skills and good tactical padding with bits of gear sets a bad precedent and mind-set. Richard Sydney Australia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/31/2004 11:42:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, kdruger_at_pacifier.com writes: Tom, the drogue is what I thought it was. I would not use one for the reasons you mention, but Rob indicates a drogue is one of the options (but not for him). I'd rather be swimming and have my kayak free of me than have the drogue line, me, and my kayak mixed up in surf. Rob has much more experience in surf than I do, so could be he has ways to minimize the hazard. I could learn from that. It's funny, the kinds of equipment carried, particularly those with a very narrow purpose, such as a surf drogue. It's really intended for landing a disabled paddler or one who is likely to be one if they come through. Anyway, it's not very big and I'm expected to use it on assessment day, so in the hatch it goes whenever there is a coastal trip. I've only had mine a few months, but we have had one along on the last several trips. A buddy (the owner of the drogue) was green in the face sick and I towed him to just outside the surf line. We thought about it, but in the end he went in without it. The swells were running 6-8 feet that day but we used a rocky offshore environment and a cove to great advantage, minimizing the surf to 3-5 foot faces. He claimed to be within seconds of meltdown, but on touching shore he stood up and instantly was cured. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/1/2005 2:06:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, birdseyclan_at_iprimus.com.au writes: I'd never even heard of a surf drogue before this posting yet alone thought that you would want to deploy such a thing in the surf. The thought of having a mass of cord and material chasing me down a wave (which is surely what it would do once you are through a break zone) fills me with horror. Also a scenario where it holds you in the dumping break instead of getting washed through it could result in a repeated and way ugly trashing even in small waves. Not to mention I wouldn't like to have to rescue someone entangled in the thing. What's wrong with a broach anyway? That's just what kayaks do and trying to use a parachute to make them run straight is just unnatural. Skills like ruddering, brace / support and a reliable combat roll is the go. I worry that substituting basic skills and good tactical padding with bits of gear sets a bad precedent and mind-set. The comment of a surf drogue is made based on an incapacitated paddler that cannot land on their own. How would you land someone if that was your only option? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
yep. I played with drouges in surf and wind and they are a tough option to rely on IMO. lot's of junk to go wrong and when it goes wrong it goes seriously wrong. It IS un-natural running in on a swell with a line holding you offshore. You could always hook a towline or two to an injured paddler and let em in that way, or something I have tried and seemed to work. get outta your boat and ride/swim in holding the victims boat as a human sea anchor. steve (who loves to swim and play in surf!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The key question is: will trying to get them ashore exacerbate the existing problem or create new and more lethal ones? If the casualty is severely incapacitated then the answer is most probably yes. If seriously incapacitated then providing physical support is critical as they are going to capsize as soon as you let go of them and possibly not wet exit. Sending them off into the surf in their boat is suicide even if they use a drogue or what ever. Trying to support and surf them in will result in major carnage with new casualties resulting from boats smashing into each other (the Horror the Horror). Even tipping them out of their boat and letting them float in would be dicey as they may not be able to look after themselves, get caught in rips - the list goes on. We'd look at forming a raft to support the casualty and start a rotating V tow towards a safe landing spot. The supporting boat provides reassurance, water etc. to the casualty. We have effectively towed people for hours rotating towers every 20 mins. If you are miles from anywhere then tow into the prevailing conditions to maintain position and call in rescue services. Even if they have been severely injured (eg. shark attack or advanced hypothermia) I would be very reluctant to take them into the surf zone. Richard Sydney Australia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/2/2005 5:45:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net writes: I had instructors in college who made buying the books THEY wrote for the class, which were tremendously over priced, AS WELL AS the recommended text book mandatory. Funny thing is we never seemed to actually need the book the instructor wrote for the class at all. This does nothing to improve my opinion of certification for sea kayakers. Scott, once in a while I'm a conspiracy theorist, too. ; ) I have a couple of those text books on my shelves. The small drogue he made has at least half of the 40 bucks he charged me with tied up in the Wichard snaphook, that retails for 20-22 at Westmarine. I use those on my regular tow lines, not cheap, but definitely my favorite. The drogue itself is small, about 12 inches, but well made. There is not enough profit in there to feed a rabbit lunch, let alone indict a group of paddlers or the system they represent. Nice try. It is not a large chute, about 12", that will pin you to the waves as some claim, and the line is about 9 feet. When I reread the section in Dowd's book about Steph Dutton using a 42' line and a larger chute to get through surf, I sympathised with the criticism. That's a lot of bite and a very long line. I haven't put it in large enough surf yet to paint the drama that's come out of this thread yet. But when I come into discomfort I will report it here first. Rob G Oh, Happy New Year! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/3/2005 5:48:54 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, birdseyclan_at_iprimus.com.au writes: The key question is: will trying to get them ashore exacerbate the existing problem or create new and more lethal ones? If the casualty is severely incapacitated then the answer is most probably yes. If seriously incapacitated then providing physical support is critical as they are going to capsize as soon as you let go of them and possibly not wet exit. Sending them off into the surf in their boat is suicide even if they use a drogue or what ever. Trying to support and surf them in will result in major carnage with new casualties resulting from boats smashing into each other (the Horror the Horror). Even tipping them out of their boat and letting them float in would be dicey as they may not be able to look after themselves, get caught in rips - the list goes on. We'd look at forming a raft to support the casualty and start a rotating V tow towards a safe landing spot. The supporting boat provides reassurance, water etc. to the casualty. We have effectively towed people for hours rotating towers every 20 mins. If you are miles from anywhere then tow into the prevailing conditions to maintain position and call in rescue services. Even if they have been severely injured (eg. shark attack or advanced hypothermia) I would be very reluctant to take them into the surf zone. Richard, at some point you will have to paddle in and answer the question as I asked it ; ) (snip) How would you land someone if that was your only option? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Once I find a nice calm landing spot you just tow them up to the beach. Or after they have been loaded into the rescue craft you rush to the nearest pub and try to make the story sound much tougher than it really was (a great sea kayaker tradition down here)! :?) > Richard, > > at some point you will have to paddle in and answer the question as I > asked it ; ) > > (snip) > How would you land someone if that was your only option? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard wrote >Even if they have been severely injured (eg. shark attack or advanced >hypothermia) I would be very reluctant to take them into the surf zone. G'day Richard, Do you think its sea kayaks that are intrinsically unsafe in taking injured parties through the surf? I'm trying to relate to the fact that surf life saving clubs in Australia rescue people using surf boards or surf boats. Do they also use surf skis? I'm pretty sure such rescues have included swimmers atacked by sharks. In the event of a shark attack surely doing whatever can be done to prevent blood loss and getting the traumatised person to shore as fast as possible would be the only chance they had. I don't know what the survival rate is but of the one or two attacks we have in Australia each year I would guess about half survive. Worth saying that he family of the most recent victim made a point of stating that the shark should not be hunted and killed - it was in its natural environment. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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