This has been a useful thread. Thanks Doug for a measured response. Apologies if I am going over old ground but some folks may wish to see how a typical rig is home-brewed down under. http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/12/towrope.html We have tended towards a longer rig, around 15m and the idea around a standard length for club paddles is that this makes a double tow easier. That is, both towers are abreast of each other and able to communicate if necessary. But I think the NSWSKC's grading system also makes it less likely that a novice [or any paddler for that matter ] will be in a situation of having to be towed at the end of a day [ on a club organised paddle ]. But no grading system, however well managed, is going to completely remove the possibility of sickness, dehydration, exhaustion, and gear failure. Cheers, PeterR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/31/2005 7:14:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, ratten_at_uow.edu.au writes: I can see the postives of a tow rig attached to PFD or waist for some situations, but I can't see an advantage in a handing off procedure with a waist type. That is, I can't see the transfer of the tow as an issue with either system. If someone needs me to contribute to towing the victim I don't need their belt as I'm wearing one or my back deck is wearing one. However, not everyone wears one, so transferability is a good feature. That is an issue best addressed on the beach before launch, by the way .I can take my deck mounted tow bag and add webbing loops so that a quick release belt can be added on the fly if I need to transfer it to someone not wearing one, but I have yet to do so. Transferability has another issue which the pro-deck mounted guys have not addressed. How about your travels abroad? Will your expectations of a boat rental or borrowing include a jam cleat and fairlead? I bet that won't happen. I have found no practical way to add one to my folder, either. A waist belt appears to me to be the best solution for travelling in particular and in some respects waist belts may be the best solution overall as they do most things well. PFD mounted systems also solve the travelling issue well. Most, if not all can be transferred on the water. Although I didn't like the one I had, one of the best things about them is that their advocates suggest a higher rate of access to it than any other system, meaning, it is always on them and available. I've sometimes dropped the ball and not checked for people actually putting their waistbelts on before launch and the folks with them on their pfd's make that situation really nice. Just a couple of cents to the subject, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Suggestion for a minimum kit of gear that might be carried by each paddler for other purposes but that could also be adapted to a towing rig if need be: For each tower, 1 runner/piece of webbing, knottable, to be looped over PFD and act as chest harness, connected by 1 locking carabiner to minimum 50 feet of light line attached to towee. Would a self-equalizing anchor connected between two towers with another carabiner help with shock absorption? Reactions? Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Cunning and inexpensive, and I might use it if no other options existed. My concern would be the lack of a "quick-release" capability, unless you tied the loop with a "slippery knot" at the front of the chest, or cut it with your knife. Cheers, Philip "Joyce Family" <tfj4_at_comcast.net> wrote: >Suggestion for a minimum kit of gear that might be carried by each paddler >for other purposes but that could also be adapted to a towing rig if need >be: >For each tower, 1 runner/piece of webbing, knottable, to be looped over PFD >and act as chest harness, connected by 1 locking carabiner to minimum 50 >feet of light line attached to towee. Would a self-equalizing anchor >connected between two towers with another carabiner help with shock >absorption? > >Reactions? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Besides the need to rig the tow with a quick-release such as by using a reefing knot, there are two other major problems with on-the-spot-improvised tow setups. The first is that a coil or hank of rope usually turns into a hank of knots before it can be deployed, even when standing on shore with a dry rope. Seated in a kayak, in rough conditions, with wet rope, it can be near impossible. Thus the reason for using the stuff-sack deployment system of the dedicated tow system (also used for throw bags and anchor bags). The second is the time it takes to deploy. A true towing system needs to be fully deployable within seconds, without tangling, without fail, if used near surf, gnarly currents, holes, etc. For calm, flat non-emergency towing, a less dedicated rig is OK My .02, Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Philip wrote (concerning the across chest webbing loop towing harness): >>>>>Cunning and inexpensive, and I might use it if no other options existed. My concern would be the lack of a "quick-release" capability, unless you tied the loop with a "slippery knot" at the front of the chest, or cut it with your knife.<<<<< This is the system George Gronseth advocates (or at least did last I knew). Release is very simple, the loop is quite oversized, all you have to do is put your forearm (on the side not over your shoulder) inside the loop in front of you and sweep the arm up and out ward to take webbing loop off over your head. Quite simple and quick. Paddle park cleats and bow u-bolts, sounds like maybe you have a Mariner (or maybe a Nimbus) kayak. Short quick release towlines are a standard fixture front and back on most of our sea kayaks (quick release anyhow as long as you have retied the slip knots once they have shrunk after the first use). The slip knots keep the line from going through the hole in the cleats but they pass through easily once the knot is slipped. Simply jerk the slip knot's loose end and you are free of the tow. A few more words on towlines. We settled on 3/16" (6mm) nylon solid braided line because of its strength, easy knotting and its stretchiness. Thinner line is probably plenty strong for towing at sea but is much more subject to tangling into a "birds nest" while being deployed and if ones hand slides on a thin line when it is under tension it much more likely to cut you like a rudder cable can. Heavier line is bulkier does not stretch as well to absorb shock. It likely also needs the extra complication (and bulk) of a bungee shock absorber in the line (when used with a relatively short towline anyhow). A longer towline should be carried for tows in rough seas but for most uses a short towline that is handy and can be quickly deployed is all that is really needed. It is nice to be able to adjust the tow length so the towed boat can "surf " on the towing boats wake (rather than always be climbing up a wake wave). If I had to clear a rudder (as the boats yawed back and forth) I'd probably use George's chest loop system to get the towing point higher. I have no experience with a body mounted tow system in rough seas or for long distances but I've towed kayaks for several miles many times using a boat mounted towline. Not much of a problem other than slowing me down maybe up to one knot. But you better not be dragging your fingers in the water back there, I'll know if you are. If the possibility of being in surf exists I'd avoid towing during that time unless you can release your tow instantly if necessary. I've tried towing a swamped boat in through surf with a 3/8" WW throw rope line. After the first jerk I quickly uncleated the rope from my 5" back deck cleat before the next wave did the uncleating (of the cleat from my deck) for me. After that quick lesson I was still able to tow the swamped boat in through the surf by holding the 3/8 rope in one hand while I paddled. I'd have to circle back to pick up the (floating) rope again whenever my boat was surfed forward on a breaker and I had to drop the line. However, the towing by tugging the towed boat forward (as my right hand pushed the paddle shaft forward) actually worked better than I thought it would. I wouldn't want to do it for long distances though. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I use a quick release buckle on the towee end of my tow lines, my side being releasable by the web belt on my pfd. I don't know what kinds of release systems others use for towees. I'd be interested to know. The buckle I have is from a horse tack store. It is attached to a line that is used to tether horses in trailers or on cross ties. Very easy to find in catalogs, it is called a "panic snap". Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thursday 07 April 2005 15.44, you wrote: > I use a quick release buckle on the towee end of my tow lines, my side > being releasable by the web belt on my pfd. I don't know what kinds of > release systems others use for towees. I'd be interested to know. > > The buckle I have is from a horse tack store. It is attached to a line > that is used to tether horses in trailers or on cross ties. Very easy > to find in catalogs, it is called a "panic snap". A quick Google search needed to have more than just "panic snap", if you didn't want pricey items "perfect for your partner, when you got to get him/her down fast". You figure! The item above costed over 12 times as much as the one at http://www.chicksaddlery.com which costed $ 0.99!!! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A quick Google search needed to have more than just "panic snap", if you didn't want pricey items "perfect for your partner, when you got to get him/her down fast". The item above costed over 12 times as much as the one at http://www.chicksaddlery.com which costed $ 0.99!!! Tord Being only a kayak and horse person, I had no idea about this other stuff. How entertaining! I DID say, however, it could be found at a horse tack store. People who ride English style are always being teased about the boots and whips and stuff. Now they can add "quick release snaps" to the kinky equipment list. Life just gets more interesting all the time! Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James wrote: > I use a quick release buckle on the towee end of my tow lines, my side > being releasable by the web belt on my pfd. I don't know what kinds of > release systems others use for towees. I'd be interested to know. I've used a panic snap (didn't know the name) on WW canoe thigh straps to be sure I could release easily. I just have a small carabiner and a float on the towee end of my SK rigs. My WW cowtail has a locking 'biner. The lock is because I wear it on the ourside of my PFD and I've hear horror stories of PFD mounted 'biners catching on things. You still need someone at the towee's bow to yank the snap, don't you? > The buckle I have is from a horse tack store. It is attached to a line > that is used to tether horses in trailers or on cross ties. Very easy > to find in catalogs, it is called a "panic snap". And if you don't have a horse tack store nearby, you can pick one up (at a much higher price) from your local BDSM boutique, accoring to Google. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/1/2005 1:59:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, tord_at_tord.nu writes: I have found no practical way to add one to my folder, either. A > waist belt appears to me to be the best solution for travelling in > particular and in some respects waist belts may be the best solution > overall as they do most things well. One way of attaching a tow rope to a folder like a Klepper is to attach a short vertical beam to the frame behind the rear seat. Similar arrangement might be possible on other kayaks?! I'm not sure I'd want to run the risk of putting heavy pulling forces on my kayak rib. My second concern is impalement. Have you considered how you would quick release that under strain? If one were to really want a rear deck tow arrangement for a folder or even a rental hardshell it may be possible to make a set of lines that can be buckled to rear deck lines. From the center a webbing strap with a quick release buckle could be added with the breakaway end connected to the towline. Might be harder to release in a hurry, compared with a waist belt. Just a thought. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Rattenbury wrote: > I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has towed > someone for HOURS in rough sea, using a body-anchor system. I have towed for hours, but not in rough seas. When my daughter started paddling (she was eight years old at the time) I bought a Salamander tow system. My daughter would quickly become tired and I'd break out the belt (Parents who paddle singles with their young children are well advised to always carry a tow). I'd drag her and that Necky Gannet for hours, sometimes in a stiff wind, but for the most part on flat water. There were plenty of times I wished for a deck mounted system as it was very fatiguing to be continually pulled to the rear while paddling. Toward the end of the day I'd find myself leaning well forward to counteract the constant rearward drag, something I didn't do at all at the beginning of the day. The Salamander's nylon bag began to unravel after a short period of use, and the thick rope took forever to dry so I replaced it with a small, very compact tow belt & bag (I don't recall the name - but the biner was attached to the bag so you could throw it like a football). The belt was very narrow and would quickly become uncomfortable when towing. It would probably work as a PFD tow, but I'm too fat to get the belt around my PFD. To this day, I carry the rope as a tow system in my day hatch, but not the belt. If needed I would simply clip it on to the cow tail attached to my PFD. This is the tow system I carry when paddling solo, simply because it is very unlikely to ever be used, doubles as a throw bag, and a tiny bit better than having nothing at all. Speaking of cow tails, my PFD has an integrated belt and I encourage anyone with one of these to practice shedding your tow system. I've found that the PFD belt loops tend to stop a tow system (cow tail or tow rope D-ring) and in practice have continued to tow even after popping the quick release. I've found that skipping a loop or two (or 3) when attaching the belt will help reduce this problem. YMMV. Finally I ended up with a North Water quick release tow line. As for a waist mounted system, this is by far the best system I've run across and what I always wear in a group. The wide belt is ok, but what really makes it stand out is once deployed it has a very big pocket to restuff the line in, which has been a difficult task for every other tow system I've tried (I usually end up stuffing other tow lines between my chest and PFD till I return to shore). My daughter, who is now 14 and a BCU 3 star, would never willingly accept a tow from her old man so my towing has now been reduced to simple practice tows. I continue to look forward to my old age when she tows me around while I sip on apple juice and take naps. So with all this, why did I never switch to a deck mounted system? To be honest I don't know. Possibly with all the different boats I have, from folders, plastic, fiberglass and wood, nothing switches as easily between them like a belt. And like I said, I just don't do much towing any more. Not sure if this will be of any use, but there it is. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 4 Apr 2005 at 21:35, Robert Woodard wrote: > Speaking of cow tails, my PFD has an integrated belt and I encourage > anyone with one of these to practice shedding your tow system. I've > found that the PFD belt loops tend to stop a tow system (cow tail or > tow rope D-ring) and in practice have continued to tow even after > popping the quick release. I've found that skipping a loop or two (or > 3) when attaching the belt will help reduce this problem. YMMV. If there's that many loops, I'd question who designed the PFD. I've got two (a WW rescue PFD and a SK tow PFD) and they both have only two loops on the side that releases - one on the front and one on the back. I've never had a problem with mine releasing when tested. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/4/2005 10:13:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, woody_at_kayaktrips.net writes: The belt was very narrow and would quickly become uncomfortable when towing. It would probably work as a PFD tow, but I'm too fat to get the belt around my PFD. This is a very important point for those using belt systems which are not dedicated to the user's PFD. I had a partner who was hurt quite badly by a punch in the gut when his boat and the boat we were towing were surfed in opposite directions on 4-6 foot seas. Joe was using a fanny-pack style commercial towing system and I was using my vest-dedicated system, hooked up to the same boat in a husky-tow. We were both experiencing fairly heavy impact from our lines loosening and tightening after short surfs. To counter these impacts, Joe would lean forward and try to hold against the impact, while I always try to allow the force to pull me back, resisting, but hinging at my hips to absorb the impact as gracefully as possible. On one such occasion, Joe's tow belt slipped off his PFD and down onto his stomach. The impact was enough that he started throwing up and was unable to help with the tow after that. I was seriously considering calling for an evacuation for Joe. The point of this is that you should tow with the belt across your PFD, where impacts are cushioned and distributed across your entire rib structure, rather than concentrated over soft organs. Dedicated vest systems have the advantage that they cannot slip out of position, which (in addition to the speed of deployment it offers) is why I always use PFD-mounted system. However, on long or rough paddles, I usually carry an additional fanny-pack system to use as needed or to assign to another tower. Whenever I use the fanny-pack system, I wear it bandolier style, over one shoulder and angled across my chest. This keep it from sliding down over my stomach and also provides a higher towing point. If this is not possible or you find it uncomfortable, the belt could possible be run through belt loops or pocket straps on the front of your PFD. One additional advantage of a body-mounted tow system over a boat-mounted system is the higher towing point it provides. The higher the rope is secured above the deck, the less the tow rope tends to hook over the stern of your boat or foul in your rudder. If the rope hooks over your stern, the towed boat will constantly pull your boat off course as it veers off to one side or the other. It is also easier to reach back and grab the rope to clear it off the stern when issuing from the middle of your back. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote: "If the possibility of being in surf exists I'd avoid towing during that time unless you can release your tow instantly if necessary." Peter responded: >>>>If you were towing in through surf, then released the tow, you now have an incapacitated or weak paddler behind you attached to a length of tow line. That paddler capsizes, wraps him or herself to the kayak in the towline... and surfs on into you. I'd prefer to have nothing to do with towing in surf. This brings up a pretty hard to solve scenario: How do you land an incapacitated paddler through surf? I just keep hoping it'll never happen. If it did, I think I might keep paddling along to a better landing, no matter how far.<<<<< Gee, I think I can stay out of his way once I drop the tow line. Anything else would now be they towees problem, wouldn't it.;-) I've never been towed except in practice so I don't tend to look at it from the towees point of view. If the slip not is maintained, each end of our kayaks has a quick release tow line so hopefully the towee could quickly shed the tow line as well. Anywhere there could conceivably be surf I'd also want to add a longer line between the kayaks quick release towlines so we would be well apart if either of us got caught up in a breaker. Notice I was careful to say "if the possibility". If you are outside a surf break, even if you don't plan to go in, there is a possibility that you may end up in surf whether you intended to or not. I think that would be a good time to let a paddler who isn't totally incapacitated paddle on their own until the danger has subsided. When I write "surf" I'm usually talking about the 5 foot and up variety that dumps rather than spills. Someone talked about having towed another paddler in through surf with a body or boat mounted tow rig. I'd guess he wasn't talking about 6 foot dumpers then. If you have a truly incapacitated (former) paddler and are facing any possibility of having to land them through dumping surf your best bet would probably be to call for an outside rescue ASAP. If that's not a possibility and there was no other options but to go in through dumping surf to reach safety and medical attention I'd probably slide them down inside the cockpit, seal their spray deck or cockpit cover over them (after making sure it was cinched down tight enough the surf isn't likely to blow it off) and then tow them as far into the break zone as I could without excessive danger to myself due to the tow. Then I would try to beat them to shore in order to help them land (rather than roll up and down the beach in the surge getting dizzy). Of course if their kayak has a fixed bow bulkhead they probably won't be able to get down into it far enough to be able to use the air inside the kayak to breath while they are tumbling around in the surf. Maybe I could amputate them at the knees first (or maybe switch kayaks with them before going in). So many possibilities here. Why he left Plum Tree, to roam around the sea, God only knows. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net> wrote: >James wrote: >>> The buckle I have is from a horse tack store. It is attached to a line >> that is used to tether horses in trailers or on cross ties. Very easy >> to find in catalogs, it is called a "panic snap". > >And if you don't have a horse tack store nearby, you can pick one up (at >a much higher price) from your local BDSM boutique, accoring to Google. >Steve Cramer Just as in kayaking, where it's more reassuring to refer to a sprayskirt's "grab loop" or "release loop" rather than its "panic loop," among practitioners of the other kind of paddling, the term "panic snap" is frowned upon, lest you create unease on the part of the recipient - "quick release snap" is much preferred. At least, that's whay I hear:-) Philip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just as in kayaking, where it's more reassuring to refer to a sprayskirt's "grab loop" or "release loop" rather than its "panic loop," among practitioners of the other kind of paddling, the term "panic snap" is frowned upon, lest you create unease on the part of the recipient -"quick release snap" is much preferred. At least, that's what I hear:-) Philip That's great! Submit to physical pain as part of having fun but don't create unease by suggesting panic. Safe torture. It's an interesting paradox. To me, anyway. And gee, Steve, I thought you were a sort of conservative academic type. But if you want to buy the proper device cheap at a horse store, it will be easier to find if you search the catalog for a panic snap. And if anyone has ever had to deal with a frightened horse that wants to break loose, panic is the right word. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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