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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Lithium Ion Batteries are Much SaferThan Lithium Batteries
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 21:34:03 -0700
I think some inadvertent misinformation has been posted here on lithium ion 
batteries.  Lithium ion batteries do not contain metallic lithium unless they 
are severely mischarged.  Rather, it is __lithium__batteries which contain 
metallic lithium, and which are a severe fire hazard if punctured.  Lithium 
batteries are not rechargeable.

The VHF handheld radios which have been discussed here recently all use 
__lithium ion__ batteries, and are about as safe as NiCad or NiMH batteries. 
Unless they are severely mis-charged, they should not produce any metallic 
lithium and therefore are incapable of burning.  Like any rechargeable 
battery, if they are recharged extremely rapidly and allowed to overcharge, 
they may vent caustic chemicals, or generate enough heat to start a fire in 
other materials.  But, they are not themselves highly likely to catch fire.

Here is one of several links I Googled up which distinguish these two 
batteries:  http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/cadex/index341.htm

This distinction, between lithium (an element) and lithium ions (the combined 
form of lithium found when it interacts with other substances) is not 
generally understood by many who write "warnings" you will see on the 
Internet.  Caveat emptor.

--
Dave Kruger
Just a long-time chemist 
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Lithium Ion Batteries are Much SaferThan Lithium Batteries
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:14:53 -0700
"Tord Eriksson" <tord_at_tord.nu> wrote:

> In short:
>
> You should never leave a charger unattended, no matter what you are
> charging, but of course we all do that, once in  awhile. Say you charge
> your phone over night, your cordless screw driver might also get
> charged overnight - to be fresh and ready next morning, et cetera.
> But there are dangers involved!
>
> I am not a chemist, but have seen what can happen!
>
> Seems there are issues with both lithium ion batteries and Lithium Polymer
> batteries, no matter if the lithium is in ion form or not!

Tord, thanks very much for carefully documenting the greater hazards of Li-Po 
batteries, relative to standard lithium ion batteries.  I always learn from 
exchanges like this, and your careful work on this most recent post has 
accomplished that.

The problems with standard (i.e., non Li-Po) lithium ion batteries remain in 
the same league as NiCad or NiMH battteries, in my opinion.  As with any 
device employing high-energy density material, there is substantial potential 
for an unfortunate accident.  This is not a reason to abandon their 
appropriate use.

I'm keeping my standard lithium ion battery, and I plan not to abuse it.  It 
is a risk I have decided to accept.  OTOH, the cautions you cite on Li-Po 
batteries, particularly those from the AMA, will keep me from owning one of 
those until the problems are worked out (if that happens).

Regards,

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR 
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Lithium Ion Batteries are Much SaferThan Lithium Batteries
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 16:50:28 -0400
On 9 Apr 2005 at 21:34, Dave Kruger wrote:

> Here is one of several links I Googled up which distinguish these two
> batteries:  http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/cadex/index341.htm

Very useful link, Dave.  Now I understand why they don't make 
rechargeable lithium batteries in standard forms (difference in 
voltages aside).  I wish they'd make new standard forms for Li 
batteries, though, so I could buy a widget and then choose to get a 
generic lithium battery instead of being locked into a specific 
manufacturer's version. 

Mike
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