Alright all you technical paddler guru's, I'm having probs with my side slip, but today when I was practicing, I discovered that it came out much better if I slightly turned my bow to the opposite side from which I was to side slip. In other words, if I wanted to do a side slip to the left, I would do a powerful forward stroke on the left - just enough to barely point the bow off to the right (only by couple of degrees) as a set up for the left hand side slip. When I discovered this, my side slips became side slips and not a modified "bow rudder". Is this an acceptable practice, or was I cheating? I appreciate any help, and plz don't tell me that was cheating :-) Thx, Richard T. Magill, Director, Word & Water Adventures www.wordandwater.us *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I'm having probs with my side slip, but today when I was practicing, I > discovered that it came out much better if I slightly turned my bow to the > opposite side from which I was to side slip. In other words, if I wanted to > do a side slip to the left, I would do a powerful forward stroke on the left - > just enough to barely point the bow off to the right (only by couple of > degrees) as a set up for the left hand side slip. When I discovered this, my > side slips became side slips and not a modified "bow rudder". Is this an > acceptable practice, or was I cheating? > > Suspect that you're not placing your hanging draw at the center of lateral resistance. Try varying the fore/aft placement of your hanging draw (with more upper body rotation to the side for aft placement). With a bit of experimentation, you should find the 'sweet spot' where the powerful forward stroke on the left is not needed. Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In my ACA instructor training class, while learning to properly demonstrate side slips, I had a discussion with our trainer WRT 'hanging draw' vs. 'side slip'. This trainer did both BCU and ACA training, and I had previously taken BCU training where I was drilled into a strong hanging draw. Below is my take away, and maybe even the descriptions can help you not cheat ;-). (you really should not have to turn your boat away before starting your slip - or draw, for that matter.) Other opinions on whether this is the same stroke or not are welcome. The _result_ is the same, of course. A Hanging Draw (which is a BCU term AFAIK), is initiated while underway and beging with a strong LEAN (not edge, I mean lean) and rotation to whatever side you want to draw to, with commitment to the paddle. The paddle is placed parallel to your hull as far away as you can reach and you draw yourself toward the paddle and rotate the boat back under your CG while you do. You can hold the draw for a good while by slightly opening the face of the blade. You stay out of the water by executing this quickly and confidently, and the boat is drawn strongly to that side. If you pull yourself into a turn then you have the blade too far forward or back (like Erik said). A Sile Slip, OTOH, is still initiated while underway but starts with perhaps a little less lean, and some would say some opposite side edge (so you lift the side of the boat that you are slipping toward), with the paddle blade being sliced into the water near the bow. You rotate and pull the blade beside you at the same time. When the blade is at your center of resistance, you open the face and hold the slip. You end up at the same place doing the same thing, but the BCU draw is a little more aggressive out of the gate, I think. That is what I do when someone yells "Quick! Draw!" ( and they don't mean my .38 :) ). When I want to just alter course or raft up with someone without scaring them to death I use the slip. Jennifer >>I'm having probs with my side slip, but today when I was practicing, I >>discovered that it came out much better if I slightly turned my bow to >> >> >>the opposite side from which I was to side slip. >> >Suspect that you're not placing your hanging draw at the center of >lateral resistance. Try varying the fore/aft placement of your hanging >draw *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What Jennifer describes as a hanging draw is called a "draw on the move" in BCU-world. What the BCU calls a hanging draw was described well, in this thread, by Sid Stone. One last comment: I believe that torso rotation toward the direction of the draw is immensely helpful for two reasons - it helps to "stack" the paddle shaft vertically - it causes the draw-side edge to lift slightly, which counters a tendency for the edge to drop on the draw side, so the kayak is flat (you don't want an edge if you're not turning). I note that Michael Daly reserves any recommendation to rotate for those who have unusual difficulty learning the hanging draw. I agree that it's possible to get the draw done without rotating, but I feel that it's very awkward that way. I suggest trying it both ways -- facing straight ahead and rotated sharply in the direction of the draw. And see ... http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/Pages/ExpertCenter/Propulsion/Propulsion-4.shtml -- especially the Flash Lesson on the hanging draw. Bob Volin ....................................... Jennifer Pivovar wrote: > In my ACA instructor training class, while learning to properly > demonstrate side slips, I had a discussion with our trainer WRT > 'hanging draw' vs. 'side slip'. This trainer did both BCU and ACA > training, and I had previously taken BCU training where I was drilled > into a strong hanging draw. Below is my take away, and maybe even the > descriptions can help you not cheat ;-). (you really should not have > to turn your boat away before starting your slip - or draw, for that > matter.) Other opinions on whether this is the same stroke or not are > welcome. The _result_ is the same, of course. > > A Hanging Draw (which is a BCU term AFAIK), is initiated while > underway and beging with a strong LEAN (not edge, I mean lean) and > rotation to whatever side you want to draw to, with commitment to the > paddle. The paddle is placed parallel to your hull as far away as you > can reach and you draw yourself toward the paddle and rotate the boat > back under your CG while you do. You can hold the draw for a good > while by slightly opening the face of the blade. You stay out of the > water by executing this quickly and confidently, and the boat is drawn > strongly to that side. If you pull yourself into a turn then you have > the blade too far forward or back (like Erik said). > A Sile Slip, OTOH, is still initiated while underway but starts with > perhaps a little less lean, and some would say some opposite side edge > (so you lift the side of the boat that you are slipping toward), with > the paddle blade being sliced into the water near the bow. You rotate > and pull the blade beside you at the same time. When the blade is at > your center of resistance, you open the face and hold the slip. > You end up at the same place doing the same thing, but the BCU draw is > a little more aggressive out of the gate, I think. That is what I do > when someone yells "Quick! Draw!" ( and they don't mean my .38 :) ). > When I want to just alter course or raft up with someone without > scaring them to death I use the slip. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 17 Apr 2005 at 21:37, Bob Volin wrote: > I agree > that it's possible to get the draw done without rotating, but I feel > that it's very awkward that way. I suggest trying it both ways -- > facing straight ahead and rotated sharply in the direction of the > draw. Some find it awkward but I don't. Since the main direction of motion is still forward, I prefer to keep my body turned that way. > And see ... > http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/Pages/ExpertCenter/Propulsion/Propul > sion-4.shtml The bottom photo shows more or less what I tried to describe; with the lower hand closer in the paddle shaft would be more vertical. The top photo shows the paddler with his arm somewhat higher than I like. It's odd that they refer to the latter position as having a torso rotated. The paddler really has little rotation and the head is really turned. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:55 PM 4/17/2005 -0400, Jennifer Pivovar wrote: >A Hanging Draw (which is a BCU term AFAIK), is initiated while underway >and beging with a strong LEAN (not edge, I mean lean) and rotation to >whatever side you want to draw to, with commitment to the paddle. The >paddle is placed parallel to your hull as far away as you can reach and >you draw yourself toward the paddle and rotate the boat back under your CG >while you do. You can hold the draw for a good while by slightly opening >the face of the blade. You stay out of the water by executing this >quickly and confidently, and the boat is drawn strongly to that side. If >you pull yourself into a turn then you have the blade too far forward or >back (like Erik said). What you are describing is a "draw on the move", not a hanging draw. A draw on the move is an aggressive stroke intended to move the boat sideways quickly, possibly to avoid a collision with something directly in your forward path. A BCU hanging draw is pretty much exactly what you describe as a Side Slip. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In the BCU's 3 star award syllabus (downloadable from their webpage), the following is said regarding the hanging draw: "The kayak should move sideways without the paddle moving in relation to the boat, or the kayak turning. (It may be necessary for the bow to be held at a slight angle away from the paddle.)" ...so it's an acceptable way of doing the stroke for BCU at least. But then again, you can always make it sweeter. By turning the bow left while drawing on the right, you actually depend on a balance between the paddle which wants to rudder the boat right (because it is placed a little too forward) and a counter-action of the boat which obstinately points to the left; I believe such a technique will not carry the stroke far because the drag generated by these two opposing actions kills the draw much earlier by sapping forward momentum. Try placing the blade further back, or turning your shoulders around to face the side more, so that the drawing force will not be so strong as to act like a full rudder making the opposite bow direction necessary. Doing a perfect hanging draw is more difficult than learning a solid roll IMO, so you can expect a lot of practice to make it work well. Ong Yong Hui *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Besides the placement of the paddle relative to the boat-body as Erik has mentioned, I neglected to mention that the angle of the paddle's power face when it is 'opened' to the front is also a significant factor to producing the stroke. As you can expect, opening up the paddle face too 'wide' will induce a stronger ruddering effect, which would require one to then counter the turning force with the kayak itself. Ong Yong Hui *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:47 AM 4/18/2005 +0800, Ong Yong Hui wrote: >Besides the placement of the paddle relative to the boat-body as Erik has >mentioned, I neglected to mention that the angle of the paddle's power face >when it is 'opened' to the front is also a significant factor to producing >the stroke. As you can expect, opening up the paddle face too 'wide' will >induce a stronger ruddering effect, which would require one to then counter >the turning force with the kayak itself. Something not mentioned so far is the distance of the paddle blade from the side of the boat. The blade should be very close to the hull. If it's not, it can be difficult to open up the blade without turning the boat too much. The key here to really rotate your torso so that your chest is facing the direction you want to go (sideways) and push the paddle shaft away with your top hand. If the paddle shaft is nearly vertical and the blade close to he hull it's much easier to control the angle of the blade. A general comment on using a small sweep to initiate the stroke. While a hanging draw/side slip is just one of the strokes for a BCU (3 star) assessment performing an effective hanging draw is just to pass an assessment. It has a real purpose; to draw the boat sideways. Using a sweep stroke will turn the boat somewhat in the opposite direction of the ultimate direction. That sort of defeats the purpose of the stroke. John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu Ithaca, NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi <<In the BCU's 3 star award syllabus (downloadable from their webpage), the following is said regarding the hanging draw: "The kayak should move sideways without the paddle moving in relation to the boat, or the kayak turning. (It may be necessary for the bow to be held at a slight angle away from the paddle.)" ...so it's an acceptable way of doing the stroke for BCU at least. But then again, you can always make it sweeter.>> You should not need to initiate the hanging draw with a sweep stroke. More than likely you do not have the paddle positioned properly off your hip. Depending on you boat, the paddle may need to be placed in front of or behind your hip. Experimentation will determine the proper positioning. A BCU 3 star assessment would probably look for the hanging draw to be initiated with a forward stroke. Try the following: 1. Paddle forward generating good forward momentum. 2. Rotate your torso toward the direction you want to move (we like to call this facing your work). 3. Edge your boat 4. Plant the blade at your hip with the blade parallel to the center line of the boat and the paddle shaft as vertical as possible. 5. Open the paddle blade. 6. You should move gracefully sideways, For more information check out _http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/Pages/ExpertCenter/Propulsion/Propulsion-4.shtml_ (http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/Pages/ExpertCenter/Propulsion/Propulsion-4.shtml) regards sid bcu coach 3 sea *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 17 Apr 2005 at 13:40, SNStone_at_aol.com wrote: > 2. Rotate your torso toward the direction you want to move I only tell folks to do this if they are hopelessly incapable of holding their paddle correctly without turning their torso. That happens with those who lack appropriate flexibility or joint mobility - or if they have a particularly wide kayak. For most folks, they can easily get the paddle in the correct position by holding the top arm across the torso at shoulder height. This puts the elbow pretty much under the chin. The other hand just moves out to the side a bit and the paddle shaft will end up vertical. They can do this for a vertical sculling stroke or for a side slip. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:41 PDT