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From: Joshua Teitelbaum <teitelba_at_post.tau.ac.il>
subject: [Paddlewise] "Seals" brand sprayskirts
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:27:43 +0200
Paddling 3-4 times a week, all year around, I tend to be hard on 
sprayskirts.  My Bushsport has given up the ghost (had it about a year and 
a half), and I'm now looking at ones with Kevlar reinforcement.  I'm 
familiar with the one by Snapdragon, which is good, but very expensive. Has 
anyone had experience with sprayskirts make by "Seals" 
(http://www.sealsskirts.com/)?  They make a kevlar model.  Both the 
Snapdragon and the Seals skirts are designated as whitewater skirts, but 
they will fit on my NDK Greenlander Pro.

Thanks,

Josh
Ra'anana, Israel
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Seals" brand sprayskirts
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 03:57:47 -0700
Josh,

Can't vouch for Seals'  heavy duty sparyskirts, but I own one of their 
touring skirts made for a Folbot Cooper.  Workmanship is good.  Same for 
materials.

You might also check out Brooks: 
http://www.brookspaddlegear.com/paddle_gear.html  Their site is down right 
now, but I expect it will come back later today.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR 
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From: Joyce Family <tfj4_at_comcast.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Seals" brand sprayskirts
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:19:48 -0500
Josh:  My degree of usage doesn't correspond to yours, so my recommendation
may not be on all four.  But I got a Snapdragon Ocean Touring skirt for my
Greenlander Pro in order to keep the cockpit as watertight as possible
during surf or extended rolling sessions, and I'm very happy with it.  It is
strong and pretty darn leakproof.

Tom

_____________________________________________________
<Josh wrote:>


> Paddling 3-4 times a week, all year around, I tend to be hard on
> sprayskirts.  My Bushsport has given up the ghost (had it about a year and
> a half), and I'm now looking at ones with Kevlar reinforcement.  I'm
> familiar with the one by Snapdragon, which is good, but very expensive.
Has
> anyone had experience with sprayskirts make by "Seals"
> (http://www.sealsskirts.com/)?  They make a kevlar model.  Both the
> Snapdragon and the Seals skirts are designated as whitewater skirts, but
> they will fit on my NDK Greenlander Pro.
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From: Kenneth W. Johnson <johnsonkw_at_earthlink.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Seals" brand sprayskirts
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:33:22 -0700
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Josh...I paddle daily, and have found that the #1 best sprayskirt for me for 
rolling and paddling in heavy wind/waves with a completely dry cockpit is 
(1) Mountain Surf, and (2) Seals, which is very close but a lot less money. 
Both last forever and provide a very tight cockpit fit.  They are cut to 
curl over the cockpit lip...not simply flat and cinched down with a bungee. 
I've had my Mountain Surf over 2 years now and it looks like new, and the 
Seals is over 1 year old now and likewise is like new.  I found Snapdragon 
is a total waste of money for me....didn't even last a year and leaked 
badly.  Ken
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From: Rafael Mier-Maza <silidriel_at_prodigy.net.mx>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] "Seals" brand sprayskirts
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:00:26 -0500
Josh...I paddle daily, and have found that the #1 best sprayskirt for me
for 
rolling and paddling in heavy wind/waves with a completely dry cockpit
is 
(1) Mountain Surf, and (2) Seals, which is very close but a lot less
money. 
Both last forever and provide a very tight cockpit fit.  They are cut to

curl over the cockpit lip...not simply flat and cinched down with a
bungee. 
I've had my Mountain Surf over 2 years now and it looks like new, and
the 
Seals is over 1 year old now and likewise is like new.  I found
Snapdragon 
is a total waste of money for me....didn't even last a year and leaked 
badly.  Ken

Hi Ken,

Can you be so kind and tell me, the coaming size (1.4?) and type of your
Seals sprayskirt? I paddle, as you do, a Performa L and if it fits well
for you it will fit well for me.

Thanks a lot 

Rafael.
Mexico
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From: Bob Denton <bob_at_sinkthestink.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gear??
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:41:25 -0700
I have completed the move from South Florida (Water temp 80-88) to Santa
Cruz (55) I suspect I will need more than a t-shirt and bare feet. 

I visited two of the local kayak shops yesterday asking about water wear. I
was told by one that a capaline shirt would be adequate and that their
students were taught not to stay in the water too long. The other suggested
a bib style wet suit and paddling jacket.

I haven't been wet yet, but I assumed I'd be looking for either a dry suit
or something to complement my Gore-Tex Kokatat semi dry top (which I only
wore once in mid winter).

Any suggestions from cold water paddlers?

Thanks

Bob
www.sinkthestink.com
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From: Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gear??
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:31:27 -0400
Bob Denton wrote:
> I have completed the move from South Florida (Water temp 80-88) to Santa
> Cruz (55) I suspect I will need more than a t-shirt and bare feet. 
> 
> I visited two of the local kayak shops yesterday asking about water wear. I
> was told by one that a capaline shirt would be adequate and that their
> students were taught not to stay in the water too long. The other suggested
> a bib style wet suit and paddling jacket.

I really like the advice from the first shop. I'd like to see how they 
teach their students not to stay in the water too long. Better still, do 
they teach them how to stay out of the water altogether? I'm envisioning 
something along the lines of Wiley in the BC comic who has learned to 
tread air a few inches (cm*2.54, eh?) above the surface.

Farmer John and paddle jacket, I'd say. Or Fuzzy rubber top and pants. 
But I tend to overdress.

-- 
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA
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From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gear??
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:10:31 -0400
At 02:31 PM 6/9/2005 -0400, Steve Cramer wrote:
>Bob Denton wrote:
>>I have completed the move from South Florida (Water temp 80-88) to Santa
>>Cruz (55) I suspect I will need more than a t-shirt and bare feet.
>>I visited two of the local kayak shops yesterday asking about water wear. I
>>was told by one that a capaline shirt would be adequate and that their
>>students were taught not to stay in the water too long. The other suggested
>>a bib style wet suit and paddling jacket.
>
>I really like the advice from the first shop. I'd like to see how they 
>teach their students not to stay in the water too long. Better still, do 
>they teach them how to stay out of the water altogether? I'm envisioning 
>something along the lines of Wiley in the BC comic who has learned to 
>tread air a few inches (cm*2.54, eh?) above the surface.

Santa Cruz is a very popular surfing spot and they stay in the water much 
longer than a kayaker would.  I wonder what kind of advice the local surf 
shops would give (O'neils is one of them).


>Farmer John and paddle jacket, I'd say. Or Fuzzy rubber top and pants. But 
>I tend to overdress.

Having spent a considerable amount of time body surfing in those waters as 
a ute that would probably work well.

John Fereira
jaf30_at_cornell.edu
Ithaca, NY
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gear??
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:52:34 -0700
Bob, two main ways to go, depending on your style:

Three mm Farmer John and goretex drytop (with latex at the wrists and a good 
closure at the waist; latex at the neck optional).

Full-on goretex dry suit with latex at the wrists and the neck; goretex 
booties at the feet.  Kokatat makes the best, but they ain't cheap.  Get a 
relief zipper.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR 
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From: Bob Denton <bob_at_sinkthestink.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gear??
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:12:34 -0700
Thanks everyone for your input. I'll probably start saving for a dry suit
and use my scuba polartec with my semi dry top to stat.

It's the coronary on my first roll, I'm afraid of!

Cya

Bob
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From: MICHAEL SILVIUS <M.Silvius_at_worldnet.att.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gear??
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:00:01 -0400
> Full-on goretex dry suit with latex at the wrists and the neck; goretex
> booties at the feet.  Kokatat makes the best, but they ain't cheap.  Get a
> relief zipper.
>

Check out the Palm brand. They are nicer than the Kokatat and a hell of a
lot cheaper. Yes they are a generic goretex. I have seen them for as little
as $350.00 for a brethable you cant beat it. Also they use a diferent zipper
as opposed to the clasic on on the Kokatat. I think it might be a better
product in the end.

a quick search turns up:

http://www.paddleshack.com/clearance_wet_drysuits.htm

best deal going for a drysuit.

the ususal disclaimer, I dont sell, own, work etc etc for them.

 michael
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gear??
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:26:52 -0400
On 9 Jun 2005 at 10:41, Bob Denton wrote:

> I haven't been wet yet, but I assumed I'd be looking for either a dry
> suit or something to complement my Gore-Tex Kokatat semi dry top
> (which I only wore once in mid winter).
> 
> Any suggestions from cold water paddlers?

Georgian Bay is considered warm if the water temps below surface are 
57F.  The surface is usually quite warm in summer, but you go down a 
couple of feet and the temp is quite chilly.  Swimming means floating 
near the surface unless you're fairly close to shore (where it gets 
warm deeper).  So my experience is with these kinds of water temps 
(or colder) a lot of the time.

Given this water temperature, paddling attire depends more on air 
temperature.  

If it's _hot_ out and swimming weather, you can get away with just a 
bathing suit and T-shirt _IF_ you are sure that you're not going to 
be out of the kayak in deep water for long.  Note the _IF_.  This 
also assumes you are not going to have a heart attack if you hit cold 
water (i.e you are healthy).  I've practiced wet exits in these 
conditions with just a bathing suit.  While not comfortable, it isn't 
debilitating and you warm up quickly once back in the kayak.

If you're with other good paddlers who know their rescues or are 
quite adept at rolling and self rescue, you can dress lighter.  
However, if not, then a 3mm FJ is good.  Do bow dunks or roll to cool 
off as required.

If the air temps are cooler, then 3mm FJ plus a drytop is good.  I 
use that combo well into the fall and even late winter if I'm with 
others.  If it's particularly cold, I augment the FJ with fleece 
sweaters and long johns (thick polypro - wool-like - cycling tights).

I only use my drysuit if I'm going to be in the water for a while 
(like instruction this month) or solo in colder months or with others 
when the ice is on the lakes.  A drysuit in July or August is way too 
hot.

I'd recommend you start with a 3mm FJ and see how you feel.

Mike
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From: <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gear??
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:27:30 -0700
>Santa Cruz is a very popular surfing spot and they stay in the water much
longer than a kayaker would.  I wonder what kind of advice the local surf
shops would give (O'neils is one of them).


   Wetsuits are actually designed to work IN the water, which is, um,
probably why they are called - wet suits :-) Once you have been swimming and
have gotten out of the water a wetsuit can actually become quite cold and
uncomfortable in cold weather, especially if you stop working, or paddling,
as the case may be. So most surfers and divers like to get out of their wet
wetsuits as quickly as possible when they leave the water. Just something to
consider.

Scott
So.Cal.
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From: Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gear??
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:47:54 -0700
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Bob,

I find that a Farmer John wetsuit, Hydroskin rash guard, Mukluk Lites, and
Gore-Tex paddling jacket, work well for me in 55 deg water. I'm located in
Southern CA and our water is a little bit warmer than yours, but not much.
Last weekend it was 58 deg and 70 deg air temp. I wore a shortie Farmer
John, and a polypro rash guard. Left the paddle jacket and Hydroskin off.
Even went for a swim after several missed roll attempts, and my paddling
partner didn't get his bow to me.

Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Denton
> 
> I have completed the move from South Florida (Water temp 
> 80-88) to Santa Cruz (55) I suspect I will need more than a 
> t-shirt and bare feet. 
> 
> I visited two of the local kayak shops yesterday asking about 
> water wear. I was told by one that a capaline shirt would be 
> adequate and that their students were taught not to stay in 
> the water too long. The other suggested a bib style wet suit 
> and paddling jacket.
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From: RAPHAEL RENTA <renta_at_prodigy.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gear??
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:29:16 -0700 (PDT)
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Hi Bob,

I paddle in the San Francisco Bay Area, Santa Cruz and
Monterey constantly. Yeah the water can be
surprisingly cold thanks to the Japanese Current
bringing frigid water and air from far up north. I
wear a kind of bib type wetsuit, with a thin
long-sleeve polyester shirt under a semi-dry top.
Members of my club (Western Seakayers), wear a wide
combination of outfits with many of them using
complete drysuits all the time. I'm always seeking a
compromise between being too hot because of the
atmospheric temperature versus dressing too lightly
for immersion. 

To make matters more complex, weather changes can be
very quick in this area. The outfit that worked fine
at the beginning of a paddle may prove to be a
sweltering sauna or a freezing food locker in the
middle of a paddle and then suddenly change again
towards the end of a paddle.

The advice that the shops gave you is sound. We don't
spend a lot of time in the water. In fact, we practice
doing rescues as quickly as possible (I can do a
paddle float rescue, start to finish, in under two
minutes). 

Nevertheless, Northern California is one of the great
paddling areas of the world. Welcome.

Raphael
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