I'm curious. After reading all this fear and loathing regarding insurance and being sued - can anyone site a real case of a kayak club being successfully sued. Actually I'd like to see 10 such cases. A stand alone case would hardly constitute a trend. Without hard evidence I think these fears are just another urban myth - like the sewers of New York being full of lawyers. Sorry I meant alligators. Every time some US judge, who may or may not be legally trained, decides that Ben should be paid $10 billion by Jerry it makes head lines. When the final appeal comes along and is over turned it makes the back page of some rag. I'd like to hear from all the former executive leaders of clubs who have been successfully sued. I'd like to know for how much and why they were sued. I once heard a respected kayak instructor, at a local kayak club meetings say, " A car rental company was just sued for $10 million." In his mind that meant we had to take out a ton of insurance and avoid all risks just to avoid the same fate. The fact the company had rented a car with no brakes was omitted in the discussion. The fact that the decision was being appealed was also ignored. I listened to this line of thought and concluded that our kayak club should not rent out kayaks without first checking the brakes. The club I use to belong to was great at talking the talk. You must improver your skills, you must do this and that, good leaders do these things and so on and so on. At one point the club bigwigs even tried to regulate non club kayak trips! But when it came time to step up everyone of the club leaders refused to walk the walk. Oh no we aren't leaders we're uh, uh, facilitators or coordinators, or organizers - anything but leaders. Ok I confess. I actually know that in New Zealand 263 kayak clubs have been successfully sued for a total of $11,213,456 and 97 cents. All figures in NZ dollars. That's the truth. Really. No I mean it. Really you can trust me. Go out to your next meeting and quote those figures. skeptical In Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gordin Warner said: > can anyone site a real > case of a kayak club being successfully sued. > Even if the suit is unsuccessful you still lose. Do you think that your attorney will work for free? It will cost you big bucks to defend against a lawsuit. So either way, you lose. That's why I don't ever set myself up as a "leader" of a trip, and even so, I'm still taking a risk of being sued because I organized a trip. Even if several people get together and paddle informally, if something were to happen to one of the other participants, the others can be sued because they didn't do what their own training should have trained them to do. So there are no winners except for the attorneys. Win or lose, you still lose. Steve Holtzman Southern Calif *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote, Even if the suit is unsuccessful you still lose. Do you think that your attorney will work for free? It will cost you big bucks to defend against a lawsuit. Yeah I know going to court is a losing proposition. But I'd still like to know if a kayak club has been successfully sued and what the circumstances where and what the finial penalty was. The key word is penalty. That's what a judgement is, and it's usually brought down because the defendant was in fact guilty of something - negligence comes to mind. Of course in United Suits of America things are often different.;-) However anyone in a club who is asked or seeks a leadership position would be wise to assess the other leaders or executives of the club. If they're competent and trust worthy then step up. If they're not or if you don't like the practices of the club, or have doubts, then by all means step back. One of the first red flags should be the clubs insurance policy. If they have one then that's a sign that the club is aware of the risk and is taking steps to manage the risks. If the club has a cavalier attitude toward safety then that's another red flag. I just think that sometimes a collective madness envelops people and we start running around like chicken little, screaming the sky is falling the sky is falling. Just because some one successfully sued some other person does not mean the entire club scene is collapsing and that all leaders will be sued. In fact I know of no kayaking club that has ever been successfully sued. I'm not saying it has not happened. I'd just like to know rather then assume. And isn't the whole point of all these certification bodies to teach paddlers the skills they need to paddle, organize, judge conditions, lead, assess risk, etc etc. If a person has gone all the way through the certification process and reached the pinnacle theoretically they should be capable of leading. Of course there's more to leadership but that discussion could fill up the empty space on my computer. Now if I lived in Califorsueme I'd only paddle with my attorney.;-) Still skeptical in Victoria *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gordon: "I just think that sometimes a collective madness envelops people and we start running around like chicken little, screaming the sky is falling the sky is falling." Thank you Gordon! Anyone can attempt to sue anyone for anything! I am a veterinarian and our sky is falling too...we are all afraid that the country is going to "allow" a financial value to be placed on the loss of a pet. "oh no!!" The fact is lawsuits are pretty infrequent (vet med and kayaking) and when they do occur, more often that not, it is because we, like MD's do something pretty dumb, don't inform, and don't communicate well. My personal approach professionally and recreationally is to do what most of us try to do (in groups), be careful, be cautious, and use good judgment. I do not actively THINK about liability. I actively think about being responsible (and this can be tough for me...I like to play). When I speculate about the consequences of someone getting in trouble, I think about how I would feel. Would I feel morally responsible, would I feel like I should have been more careful, would I regret my actions, or would I truly blame myself? In other words, if I were to look at my actions in retrospect would I (ME!) feel like I was upholding a standard of due care that I agree with. All accidents can only be prevent by NOT participating. Some accidents will occur even with the best actions and judgment. Law suits will occur, and we won't make them go away by trying to avoid them. Even if you just paddling with you best buddies and their best buddies, it is all fun and games until "someone loses an eye," THEN someone decides that that buddy's kids still need to go to college and the house has to be paid for and Dad is going to lose health insurance since he can't work as football referee anymore with only one eye. Now there is a law suit and the attorneys will figure out who is the leader and or who they can blame; club or no club, leader or no leader. In fact, being a recently certified ACA instructor and participating in both BCU/ACA I have been well informed that it doesn't matter WHO the leader is. If I am along for a formal or informal paddle and have "more" experience than the "leader" and conditions of the group paddle became risky I can still be targeted for Liability. For example, we ALLOW w/out protest Bill, a new paddler, go play in the surf with out a PFD/Helmet). We can have 100's of twists on a scenario like this; but my reality is that I am going to say "hey, Bill, that isn't a good idea"...progressing to "Bill this is Stupid, DON'T do it." After making a stink, I would feel like I made safety issues well known to the group (documentation?) and Bill, "THE competent adult" who placed himself in danger. If Bill gets hurt, I can live with that; I will feel bad and regret having tagged along with this group (this time), but I can live with that. This is the thought process that will lead MY actions. Hopefully, a Judge will feel my actions were reasonable too-but I won't let that worry lead my life. And, if "Bill" doesn't get hurt, I would avoid paddling with him again. I really get disgusted when talk like this leads to the demise of clubs, groups and camaraderie. Just enjoy yourselves and be safe! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 8/7/05 11:38, Gordin Warner at gwarner2_at_shaw.ca wrote: > Ok I confess. I actually know that in New Zealand 263 kayak clubs have > been successfully sued for a total of $11,213,456 and 97 cents. > Do we have that many kayak clubs? -- John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula NEW ZEALAND *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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