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From: John Gamel <jgamel_at_rcn.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Leg Circulation
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:13:49 -0400
I'm wondering if some of readers of the list have had some experience with
the problem of leg circulation while paddling. I have taken up sea-kayaking
this year after a lot of canoeing the past few years. I find that after a
couple of hours of paddling, I have difficulty getting out of the cockpit of
my Impex Assateague...not so much because of my height (6'3" w/34-inch
inseam), but because my legs don't want to work very well. Any
thoughts/experience regarding leg exercises, etc. while paddling, would be
great to hear. I do try to use my legs with each forward stroke, and also
try to vary my foot positions often. 

TIA - John Gamel
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leg Circulation
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:41:10 -0700
 "John Gamel" <jgamel_at_rcn.com> wrote:

> I'm wondering if some of readers of the list have had some experience with
> the problem of [impaired] leg circulation while paddling ... [snip]

John,  you say you try to use/flex your legs, so the most common cause 
(locking your legs into some sort of fixed position), is unlikely.  Could be 
that there is a pressure point/area under your legs or on their outsides 
which is restricting circulation.  Try to locate such an area by any feeling 
of deadness while paddling.  Then, change your seating and/or underdeck 
padding to relieve it.  I suspect you'll have to remove the seat and replace 
it with a custom minicell version which fits you better than the existing 
one.  Not as big a project as it sounds.  Check out Ken Rasmussen's site for 
info and materials, if you go that route:  http://www.kayakfit.com/

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
. 
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From: Rafael Mier-Maza <silidriel_at_prodigy.net.mx>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Leg Circulation
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:42:40 -0500
Hi John, 

At first, my problem was that kayaks were too low and had to have my
legs too straight, and made them dumb under the knee. 

I redesigned my kayak with higher cockpit and that did the trick. My
legs were slightly bent. So maybe there is something there.

Anyway with time, my legs got used to the sitting position and now I can
paddle low deck kayaks without much problem, unless they are really low
so that I have to be totally square.

Sometimes low leg support helps some, too. Some other times, if the seat
end is high and the person is big, the legs hang at the end of the seat
and there is some nerve pressure that makes them dumb.

In most cases with practice the problems gets slowly reduced.

Best Regards,

Rafael
Mexico.
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From: Rafael Mier-Maza <silidriel_at_prodigy.net.mx>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Leg Circulation
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:42:14 -0500
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including  
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have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing 
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Hi John, 

At first, my problem was that kayaks were too low and had to have my
legs too straight, and made them dumb under the knee. 

I redesigned my kayak with higher cockpit and that did the trick. My
legs were slightly bent. So maybe there is something there.

Anyway with time, my legs got used to the sitting position and now I can
paddle low deck kayaks without much problem, unless they are really low
so that I have to be totally square.

Sometimes low leg support helps some, too. Some other times, if the seat
end is high and the person is big, the legs hang at the end of the seat
and there is some nerve pressure that makes them dumb.

In most cases with practice the problems gets slowly reduced.

Best Regards,

Rafael
Mexico.
 

-----Mensaje original-----

 "John Gamel" <jgamel_at_rcn.com> wrote:

> I'm wondering if some of readers of the list have had some experience
with
> the problem of [impaired] leg circulation while paddling ... [snip]
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From: Darryl <Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leg Circulation
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:02:27 -0400
> I'm wondering if some of readers of the list have had some experience
> with the problem of leg circulation while paddling. I have taken up
> sea-kayaking this year after a lot of canoeing the past few years. I
> find that after a couple of hours of paddling, I have difficulty
> getting out of the cockpit of my Impex Assateague...not so much
> because of my height (6'3" w/34-inch inseam), but because my legs
> don't want to work very well. Any thoughts/experience regarding leg
> exercises, etc. while paddling, would be great to hear. I do try to
> use my legs with each forward stroke, and also try to vary my foot
> positions often. 
> 
> TIA - John Gamel

At least once an hour I take one or both feet off the foot pegs and 
stretch them right out and wiggle them around for a while. Five or 
ten minutes if I'm not in a hurry and need the extra power I get from 
having them back on the foot pegs.

It might also be your seat (your bum) not fitting as well into the 
kayak seat as you'd like. You could play about with padding to see if 
it helps.

How's your general health and circulation? No problems with blood 
flow in the extremities when you're not in your kayak?

-- 
  Darryl
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leg Circulation
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:52:16 -0400
On 25 Jul 2005 at 19:13, John Gamel wrote:

> I find that after a couple of hours of paddling, I have difficulty
> getting out of the cockpit of my Impex Assateague...not so much
> because of my height (6'3" w/34-inch inseam), but because my legs
> don't want to work very well.

The odds are it's your seat, or rather the whole problem of your 
backside and upper thighs not getting good support.  I seem to 
remember that the Assateague's seat is relatively flat.  That makes 
for poor support.  Ideally, you'll want to get a shape that contacts 
a lot more of your backside.  Some paddlers have made seats that are 
shaped like their backsides by making a mold -see the Kayak Wiki 
page: 
<http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-
sys/cgiwrap/guille/wiki.pl?Making_A_Seat>

Mike
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From: Ian Dewey <ian.dewey_at_canoe.org.au>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Leg Circulation
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:23:10 +1000
John Gamel asked
I'm wondering if some of readers of the list have had some experience with
the problem of leg circulation while paddling....

We have found over the years that many people who think they have problems
due to sitting still or having an "uncomfortable" seat actually have a very
different problem.  When we slouch we let our pelvis go flat so that the
connection with the lower spine becomes a tight turn constricting nerves,
etc.  This leads to feelings of general leg pain and pins and needles which
become alleviated by stretching, etc and are thus often misdiagnosed as a
seat that pinches nerves, etc or not moving the limbs.

This also leads to long term back injury!  - long term lower back injury is
the most common reason recreational paddlers leave our sport

The solution; Firstly your seat must be higher than your feet - yes this
does make things less stable but tough) a minimum of 5 cm is absolutely
essential, 10 is much better.  Secondly the base of your seat should rise as
it goes aft (most seats have a dip in the middle which unfortunately
reinforces slouching)  Finally you need to make a deliberate action of
tilting your pelvis up as you first sit in your kayak and each time you
start paddling again after a break.

Tight hamstrings will gradually pull the pelvis flat - work on stretching
your hamstrings as part of your paddling routine - also make a habit of
regularly kissing your fore deck to stretch things out as you paddle.

How do you know if this is a problem?

If you can tilt your pelvis up whilst sitting in the "normal" paddling
position then yes you have an aft tilted pelvis and should do something to
help yourself.

Secondly to test it on the water, when you get a feeling of leg pain or pins
and needles, etc.  Lean forward and kiss the deck, specifically stretching
the hamstrings for at least 10 seconds then sit back upright making sure to
give the pelvis a quick jiggle and straighten.  There should be immediate
relief

Happy paddling

Ian Dewey 
Manager - Education and Development
Australian Canoeing 
PO Box 666 Glebe NSW 2037 
(02) 9552 4500 
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leg Circulation
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:35:51 -0700
> The solution; Firstly your seat must be higher than your feet - yes this
> does make things less stable but tough) a minimum of 5 cm is absolutely
> essential, 10 is much better.

These 5 (or 10) cm should probably be measured from the heel, because feet
aren't flat on the floor.  Such a position is really less tiresome, as I've
a chance to see, using an elevated seat in a folding kayak (couldn't do this
in a hardshell, but folders are very beamy - most of them).
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Leg Circulation
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:28:56 -0400
On 26 Jul 2005 at 11:23, Ian Dewey wrote:

> The solution; Firstly your seat must be higher than your feet - yes
> this does make things less stable but tough) a minimum of 5 cm is
> absolutely essential, 10 is much better.

This is pretty far from what any kayak I've ever seen has for a seat 
height.  If I raised the seat in my kayak by 10cm, I'd no longer have 
my hips inside and my kayak would be like an extremely tippy sit-on-
top.  It sounds to like this would produce more problems than it 
solves.

I've paddled many kayaks and found my current kayak is by far the 
most comfortable.  It has a "bucket" seat - the seat is highly curved 
in every direction - pretty much the shape of my backside.  There is 
a large bump forward and between my legs to help keep me from sliding 
forward.  It fits me side-to-side without any padding.

In addition, I have an ocean cockpit.  This allows me to brace 
without having knee or thigh hooks.  As such, my legs can be in any 
position and I'm not stuck with my legs locked in a splayed "birthing 
position" all day.  As a result, I've become more comfortable over 
time with a looser fit and have moved the footpegs further forward 
than in any other kayak.  My legs are able to move around easily.

In my WW kayak, I can last about 45 minutes maximum before my legs 
and/or feet are tingling.  In my Solstice (since sold) I could go no 
more that about two hours.  With my current BD Ellesmere, there is no 
limit on how much time I can spend in the cockpit.  The only time I 
had any kind of problem with the Ellesmere was a few weeks ago, when 
I paddled while holding my camera lodged between my legs - after 
about a half hour, my foot went to sleep.  I put the camera on a pad 
in the bottom of the kayak and my problem went away immediately.

I am convinced that the real solution is good support and a looser 
fit.  If you are on a flattish seat there will be too much pressure 
in a small area of your backside.  With thigh or knee hooks, and 
especially with tight footpegs, you are locked into a single 
position; you have to be able to move around and paddle relaxed.

Almost everyone I run across who complains of back problems tends to 
slouch.  High seat backs contribute to problems as well.  Removing 
the seat back, replacing it with a low backband and learning to sit 
with the shoulders slightly forward of the hips solves back problems 
for most folks.

BTW - I sit in an Obus Forme office chair to minimize back problems.  
My kayak is more comfortable to sit in.

Mike
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From: <YESPE_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leg Circulation
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:13:05 EDT
If your legs are going to sleep it probably isnt due to circulation problems, 
it could be your siatic nerve. Try a rolled up towel under your thighs or 
adjust your seat so that your legs are not straight. 

edgar
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