I'm starting a little research project. Ok maybe not so little. I'd like to hear first person accounts from anyone who has been injured by the grab handle loop on the bow or stern of a kayak. Those who have had a finger broken, dislocated, or injured in anyway by these loops, if you could email me the details it would be helpful. Try to include specific information such as: 1. day and date of injury 2. make of boat 3. sea state 4. how the injury happened, carrying, grabbing for the boat in the water etc. 5. nature of the injury, how long it to recover, etc. 6. where the accident happened, Alaska, BC, Asia, where ever please go from a general location to a specific location such as (British Columbia, Vancouver Island surfing at Tofino) If this turns out to be significant I planning to write the major manufactures to change this practice but before I do so I would like to get a better, pardon the pun, handle on this issue. I will of course share the results of my research here and on other kayaking forms. Email me back channel if you have any information you would like to share or if you know of someone who has been injured would pass this request on. Thank you for you time Gordin Warner Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I'm starting a little research project. Ok maybe not so little. I'd > like to hear first person accounts from anyone who has been injured > by the grab handle loop on the bow or stern of a kayak. > I am intrigued by this. In the last four plus years of kayaking, I have yet to hear of anyone getting injured this way, let alone know of anyone personally. (My other kayaking was so long ago that I have forgotten almost everything: and I don't think there were grab handles on kayaks back then anyway.) Yet the assumption must be that there *are* injuries of this sort for Gordon to start a research project on it. I would be interested in seeing a copy of any replies sent to the list as well as to Gordon. (It's the stuff you don't know about that ends up biting you in the ass.) -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I am intrigued by this. I must say that I am also intrigued. Its not a form of injury that I even considered. Do toe injuries from breaking grab handles count? Or perhaps from dropping the boat as the result of poor grip on the grab handle? I've never witnessed these, but my guess is that they are at least as likely as a finger injury. :P One thing that came to mind after reading about this study was the was the way in which Impex outfits their current boats. They have the typical grab handles found on most boats. They also have a much larger fabric handle loop that they mount on the deck. This additional handle was a nice touch. My guess is that it may be safer then the standard grab loop. Derek > > In the last four plus years of kayaking, I have yet > to hear of anyone > getting injured this way, let alone know of anyone > personally. (My > other kayaking was so long ago that I have forgotten > almost > everything: and I don't think there were grab > handles on kayaks back > then anyway.) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Quoting Darryl <Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca>: > > I'm starting a little research project. Ok maybe not so little. I'd > > like to hear first person accounts from anyone who has been injured > > by the grab handle loop on the bow or stern of a kayak. > > > > I am intrigued by this. > > In the last four plus years of kayaking, I have yet to hear of anyone > getting injured this way, let alone know of anyone personally. (My > other kayaking was so long ago that I have forgotten almost > everything: and I don't think there were grab handles on kayaks back > then anyway.) > > Yet the assumption must be that there *are* injuries of this sort for > Gordon to start a research project on it. > > I would be interested in seeing a copy of any replies sent to the > list as well as to Gordon. (It's the stuff you don't know about that > ends up biting you in the ass.) > > -- > Darryl This summer I managed to pull the grab handle out of the bow of my kayak. I was dragging the fully loaded boat up onto a beach and stressed the aluminum rivets beyond capacity. I should have known better but was being impatient. No injury resulted except to my ego. Bradford R. Crain Department of Mathematics and Statistics Portland State University 724 SW Harrison St. 334 Neuberger Hall Portland, Or 97201 Phone: 503-725-3127 E-mail: crainb_at_pdx.edu Fax: 503-725-3661 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bradford R. Crain wrote: > This summer I managed to pull the grab handle out of the bow of my > kayak. I was dragging the fully loaded boat up onto a beach and stressed > the aluminum rivets beyond capacity. I should have known better but was > being impatient. No injury resulted except to my ego. This is something that bugs me. I often hear paddlers say that you shouldn't lift a kayak by its toggles. Heck, as far as I'm concerned, if the toggle can't hold the max design weight of the kayak comfortably, it isn't designed right. Why put on a "handle" if you aren't supposed to use it? On my kayak (and many others) the Brit-style end toggle passes through the hull where the end-pour is. That's solid resin covered with glass. The limit of the strength is the rope the toggle is tied with. That's easy enough to make strong. Flimsy kayaks without end pours and screwed or riveted handle are just not adequate. I covered my toggles with softer plastic to make it stickier than the plain ABS. I've dropped another kayak when my wet hands slipped on the same kind of toggle. However, just sanding the toggle rough will do it. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael, My take was that you didn't want to be in the habit of using the toggles to carry, SO that for that 1 x per year event, when you NEEDED the toggles in surf, you could depend on them not being worn thin. FWIW, Steve Bailey Michigan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve_at_ECVH wrote: > My take was that you didn't want to be in the habit of using the toggles > to carry, SO that for that 1 x per year event, when you NEEDED the > toggles in surf, you could depend on them not being worn thin. Fair enough, but I prefer regular inspection of the toggles - I check them every time I go out, since they are used to tie down the kayak on the roof. I change the rope with some regularity - current is the third set in five years. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] I've never had to swim a sea kayak through the surf but I never thought that the toggles on my Nimbus would be that useful for it anyway. For one thing the rear toggle is about 12 inches forward from the stern of the boat which has a rudder on it that I suspect would be good to stay away from in surf. What I planned to use if I had to swim through surf with my boat would be a combination of the sidelines and the bow towlline. Then let it go in ahead of me but sternfirst on a ten foot lead (the towline) from the bow. The sidelines would get me to the bow (I seem to surface next to the boat when I swim out anyway) and let me hold on to the boat while I get the towline unclipped and ready (I just unclip one end and it's ready to go). But I admit to using the toggles to carry the kayak (unloaded) most of the time. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 9/27/06, Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca> wrote: > Steve_at_ECVH wrote: > > My take was that you didn't want to be in the habit of using the toggles > > to carry, SO that for that 1 x per year event, when you NEEDED the > > toggles in surf, you could depend on them not being worn thin. > > Fair enough, but I prefer regular inspection of the toggles - I check them > every time I go out, since they are used to tie down the kayak on the roof. I > change the rope with some regularity - current is the third set in five years. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am a flat water Michigan resident. I go to my folks place on the Florida Gulf several time a year to play. Having bailed in surf in the gulf coast and walked the boat in...I can see finger/hand entrapment/injury easily occurring when the grabbed boat is window-shadded, and you aren't! I paddle (or walk) and Nordkapp with the grab loop off the extreme ends like the brits like. > juries of this sort for > Gordon to start a research project on it. > > I would be interested in seeing a copy of any replies sent to the > list as well as to Gordon. (It's the stuff you don't know about that > ends up biting you in the ass.) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Gordon, I don't have personal experience of bow toggle-injury, but I am sending an incident report that I wrote a few years ago which includes details of an injury. I saw the results a few days later, but in the scheme of things the paddler was lucky to be alive so the pain from missing skin was a reminder that he was still breathing! Notes on locations: Pines Beach and the Waimakariri River are located north of Christchurch, a city on the east coast of the South Island, New Zealand. Taylor's Mistake is a popular surfing beach near Christchurch. Good luck with the research. JKA -- John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula NEW ZEALAND -------------------------------- Sea kayaker lucky to survive. A sea kayaker with limited experience is planning to join a kayaking organisation, following his rescue after he capsized and was blown offshore. The paddler, a 44-year-old male, had owned his QK Penguin for about four months, and had no previous experience in kayaking. In that time he had paddled on lagoons, and on the lower stretches of the Waimakariri River, in Canterbury. He paddled alone and had picked up tips from kayakers he met while out in his boat. The weekend before this incident he had paddled in the surf at Taylor's Mistake. Shortly before 3pm on Sunday, September 8 2003, he drove to Pines Beach, about 12 kilometres north of Christchurch, and walked down to the water's edge to check conditions. A surf of about 1/2 metre was breaking, and a light Northwest wind was blowing offshore and down the beach. Wearing a buoyancy vest, a cotton top, and Lycra shorts, he launched into the surf which was similar in size to that which he had experienced at Taylor's Mistake the weekend before. He had no difficulties in breaking out through the waves, and once beyond the breaker line he turned to catch a ride in. He noticed at this point that the wind was stronger, as a result of having moved beyond the sheltering trees that give the beach its name. A larger swell appeared astern, and, not wanting to surf it in, the paddler turned into it. During this turn a gust of wind hit him and he capsized. He was not concerned, as he had practised re-entering his kayak by climbing onto the rear deck and sliding his legs in. He was confident in his ability to get back in, but had only tried it in calmer conditions. He climbed up and lay face down as he slipped his legs into the cockpit, but as he turned over he was capsized again. He attempted this manoeuvre eight or nine times, all with the same result. As he floated in the water with his kayak he was aware of a car following his progress down the beach. He was close enough to the beach to identify the colour of car, but not recognise the make, or see the driver. He waved his paddle but got no response. As he drifted south he was concerned that as he approached the mouth of the Waimakariri River, about 1.4 kilometres south of his start point, he would be subjected to stronger winds from the open country. The paddler considered leaving his kayak and swimming to shore, but reasoned that the orange kayak would be more visible than a lone swimmer. He attempted to tow the kayak using the bow line. He was confident of outside help, aware from the actions of the car that his predicament was being watched. He did not feel cold, but was aware that his bare feet were cooling. Soon he saw a rescue vessel from the Waimak-Ashley Surf Rescue group approaching, and felt relief. It came straight towards him, and he remembers seeing the stern of the boat as it swung around him. Being asked his name was the last memory he has, and he knew nothing of his helicopter flight until he awoke in the Emergency Department of Christchurch Hospital. He remained in the hospital overnight for observation, and apart from hypothermia he lost some skin from between the fingers of one hand, caused by holding onto the bow toggle. This wound, which he didn't notice at the time, involved the web between the index and middle finger's and one week later was still very raw. He has had no other after effects, and is philosophical about the incident. He "didn't feel he was going to die", and has felt more at risk while cycling. Observations by author. This paddler is lucky to be alive. Had bystanders not raised the alarm and emergency services responded quickly, he would likely have been carried well off-shore by the wind and the outflow from the Waimakariri River. He had spent over half an hour in the water by time of rescue, while not dressed for immersion. He felt he could have stayed another half hour in the water. His rescuers described him as incoherent and unable to assist himself. A NIWA scientist confirmed that surface water temperature in the area is currently 10-11 degrees Centigrade. Immersion time graphs show a lightly clad swimmer in such cold water has a survival expectancy of one to two hours. Despite his limited experience and skill this kayaker chose to paddle alone in surf. He is physically fit, and trains regularly. He was confident that he could re-enter his boat, but his skills were not sufficient, once the conditions become rougher. The off-shore wind removed his chance of returning to the beach. With his options of re-entering his kayak and returning to the shore now gone, he was reliant on outside assistance for his survival. He was lucky that bystanders saw his plight and took action. He had no means of attracting attention had these people not been there. Recommendations by author. The weather forecast for this period was for north-westerly winds, 45 kph in exposed areas. The kayaker checked the conditions at the beach, but did not have the experience to appreciate the sheltering effect of the tall pines. Paddling alone is a rewarding experience, but without developing strong skills and judgement, any problem can rapidly become overwhelming. Having another paddler alongside is no guarantee of safety, but with proper training mutual assistance can be life saving. Over-estimation of skill is a very common situation. Cold water kills! Dressing for immersion is a vital part of sea kayaking. A wet suit or dry suit will improve comfort and extend survival times significantly. Cotton clothing should never be worn while kayaking, due to its cooling effect when wet. Swimming is a sure way to speed heat loss as the physical activity brings warm blood to the body shell, where it is cooled. If alone the HELP position, or in a group the HUDDLE, goes some way to reducing heat loss. Remove as much of the body from the water as possible as, despite the wind-chill effect, the heat loss will be lessened. Water conducts heat 25 times faster than air of the same temperature. This paddler realised afterwards that hauling himself onto the hull of his boat would have helped. Abandoning the kayak to swim to shore is not recommended, as swimming ability is much reduced in cold water. The last chance this kayaker had was outside rescue, but he had no means of raising the alarm. He was very fortunate that others did this for him. Carrying signalling equipment is no substitute for skill and judgement, but it can be a last hope. A whole battery of signals is available, from pyrotechnics to electronics, and it is important that paddlers consider their options, as luck is not to be relied upon. This kayaker has had a learning experience, and plans to upskill. He will paddle with others and has not been put off sea kayaking by this experience. John Kirk-Anderson NZOIA Sea Kayak Instructor, Level 2 BCU Coach, Level 4 (Sea) Instruction Officer KASK *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gordin wrote >I'd like to hear first person accounts from anyone >who has been injured by the grab handle loop on the >bow or stern of a kayak. G'Day Gordin, Wasn't sure if you were including toggles or just loops in the research? Our club specifies that boats on club trips must be fitted with toggles not loops. The reason was the possibility of injury due to the boat twisting in the surf while the kayaker had their hand or fingers in the loop. Whether the rule was introduced because of first hand experience or conventional wisdom I don't know, but will ask. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Get a grip, Gordon. :-) DL > I'm starting a little research project. Ok maybe not so little. I'd > like to hear first person accounts from anyone who has been injured > by the grab handle loop on the bow or stern of a kayak. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Steve_at_ECVH wrote: > >> My take was that you didn't want to be in the habit of using the toggles >> to carry, SO that for that 1 x per year event, when you NEEDED the >> toggles in surf, you could depend on them not being worn thin. > > > Fair enough, but I prefer regular inspection of the toggles - I check them > every time I go out, since they are used to tie down the kayak on the > roof. I change the rope with some regularity - current is the third set > in five years. > > Mike > My kayak originally came with thin nylon straps and plastic handles forward and aft. The straps rapidly wore out. I replaced them with loops of climbing rope, and stainless steel carabiners linking the boat to the handles. The rope has lasted over 12 years. Unfortunately, it is still possible to pop the rivets off the boat. Brad Crain *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't have an anecdote for you, but I wanted to say that I and many of my friends have adapted our grab handles, but cutting them, so that they are no longer loops,but just a length of line with a handle on the end. We did this with the express intent of avoiding such injuries, and no one that I know has sustained one. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There are some boats where the two lines going to the toggle are spaced about 3/4" apart. This lends itself to a carry scenario of finger|line|finger|line|finger. It's obvious which finger is particularly at risk. Unfortunately, it's a very comfortable carry that way. Steve Joan Volin wrote: > I don't have an anecdote for you, but I wanted to say that I and many of > my friends have adapted our grab handles, but cutting them, so that they > are no longer loops,but just a length of line with a handle on the end. > We did this with the express intent of avoiding such injuries, and no > one that I know has sustained one. > > Joan -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gordin, I broke my left middle finger by holding on to the grab loop of a surf kayak in good sized surf January 10 years ago. Jordan River, Vancouver Island, BC. I did exactly what my guide had told me not to do - try to hold onto the kayak! The last phalangeal bone was broken into 3 pieces which had to be pinned together. My then grade 1 daughter took me for show and tell since I had this thing like a paper clip sticking out! At 11:22 AM 26/09/2006, Gordin Warner wrote: >I'm starting a little research project. Ok maybe not so >little. I'd like to hear first person accounts from anyone who has >been injured by the grab handle loop on the bow or stern of a kayak. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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