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From: Dave Bishop <bishopd_at_jps.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] (Paddlewise) Spray Skirts/PFD's/Dry Tops
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:00:23 -0800
The recent issue of Canoe & Kayak has reviews of a half-dozen spray skirts and
as I looked at the accompanying pictures of paddlers in their kayaks, I noted
that none of the paddlers were wearing PFD's   I am assuming that was because
the pictures were posed and intended to show the whole spray skirt, including
the features of the tunnels.  The paddlers dry tops were all worn inside the
tunnels of the spray skirt, I assume for the same reason, however, that
brought some questions to my mind.

My first instructions in what to wear, and how to wear it, while  kayaking
were to don the spray skirt first, then the dry top with its tight waistband
down over the skirt's tunnel, and then the PFD on top.  This  manner of
wearing these has always shed spray and splash and rain very nicely and kept
me dry inside.

On a recent tour I was chastised by a professional guide for wearing my PFD
over the spray skirt and instructed to put on the PFD first and pull the
tunnel of the skirt up outside of it.  We were paddling on very calm water on
a warm day, so in order to keep peace (and with very skeptical second
thoughts),  I did so, though the pockets in my PFD were covered up.

So, my sea kayak paddling  Paddlewise colleagues,  how do you wear these
items?  What do you put on first, second, and third?

Ol' Dave
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (Paddlewise) Spray Skirts/PFD's/Dry Tops
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 20:53:22 -0800
Dave Bishop wrote:
> The recent issue of Canoe & Kayak has reviews of [snip] The paddlers dry
> tops were all worn inside the tunnels of the spray skirt, 
> 
> My first instructions in what to wear, and how to wear it, while
> kayaking were to don the spray skirt first, then the dry top with its
> tight waistband down over the skirt's tunnel, and then the PFD on top.
> This  manner of wearing these has always shed spray and splash and rain
> very nicely and kept me dry inside.

If you swim, that method for the skirt and DT invites water entry inside 
the DT.  I would not do it that way unless I had a double-closure dry top, 
so I could put the skirt tunnel over the _inner_ DT closure and under the 
_outer_ DT closure.  I own such a DT, and it seals water out from the 
outside, and keeps me dry underneath if I swim.  I agree the PFD needs to 
go over it all.

> On a recent tour I was chastised by a professional guide for wearing my
> PFD over the spray skirt and instructed to put on the PFD first and pull
> the tunnel of the skirt up outside of it.  We were paddling on very calm
> water on a warm day, so in order to keep peace (and with very skeptical
> second thoughts),  I did so, though the pockets in my PFD were covered
> up.

Don't understand where the guide is coming from, unless his main paranoia 
was entrapment with the skirt on the coaming.  I would never paddle that way.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Mark Arnold <mjamja_at_earthlink.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] (Paddlewise) Spray Skirts/PFD's/Dry Tops
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 23:09:03 -0600
I have gone through many variations of skirt-jacket combinations.  
Although I believe there is no one right way to wear a skirt and jacket
there are some benefits to wearing certain types of skirts and jackets in
certain ways.   A major factor in determining how you might want to wear a
skirt/jacket combination is the angle the tube of the skirt naturally makes
with the skirt deck.   Skirts with a neoprene tube and deck (if sized
properly) have a 90 degree angle between the tube and the deck.   The
opening in the deck is small enough so that the deck comes right up against
your torso so the tube can rise up at the 90 deg angle.   An improperly
sized skirt or one with the opening too far forward may not have the
desired 90 deg angle.   This 90 angle is desirable because it lets the
jacket and PFD go over the tube without forcing the top of the tube lower
down on your body.   

The driest combination is a double tunnel jacket with an all neoprene
skirt.   The skirt goes on first, but the tube is rolled down.  The jacket
is put on with the inner tunnel down and the outer tunnel up.   The
neoprene tube is then rolled over the outside of the inner tunnel.  The
outer tunnel is pulled down over the skirt tube and tightened.  The PFD is
then worn over the jacket.   More effort to get on and off so you have
lunch with you skirt on and learn to use the facilities without removing
your skirt.

With a single tunnel jacket and an all neoprene skirt the major decision to
make is whether to wear the skirt against your skin.   With a paddling
jacket (no latex seals)  you may find water working its way up your sleeves
and up under the bottom.   If you are rolling you can get significant water
inside the jacket.   If you wear the tube against your skin with a shirt
outside the tube then water coming in and saturating your shirt will not
drain down inside the tube.   I think you get a little better seal against
bare skin than against a shirt.   So in this case you have skin, neoprene
tube, shirt, jacket, and then PFD.  The downside is that you can get a rash
from the neoprene against your skin.   If you are not rolling or in waves
breaking over your deck you probably do not have to worry about water
draining down your shirt.  

Although you might find an all neoprene skirt with a very large tube,
normally the tubes are selected to tightly fit the torso so you do not even
have the option of wearing the tube over the PFD.   You could wear one over
a jacket, but with wrinkles or pleating in the jacket material I would
think you would get a much worse seal than wearing the tube under the
jacket.

With skirts with nylon tubes (either neoprene/nylon combos or all nylon)
the size and location of the opening in the deck is my main concern.  If
the opening is small and properly centered then the tube will almost make
the same 90 deg angle with the deck as it does a neoprene tube.   In this
case I recommend wearing jacket and PFD over the tube just like with the
all neoprene skirts.   If the opening is fairly large or not centered
properly over the seat (a condition likely in rental fleets where equipment
must work on multiple kayaks and multiple sizes of people) the tube will
angle out away from the body when it is pulled up to its highest position
on the chest.   If you try to put a jacket and/or PFD over the top of the
tube you end up pushing the top of the tube lower down on you body.   I
have seen some situations where the tube was pushed so far down that the
top of the tube was actually below the bottom of the PFD.   This is an
invitation for water to come under the PFD and  jacket and go over the top
of the lowered tube.    If however you pull the tube over the top of the
PFD you can get it up much higher on you chest so it is harder for water to
climb over it.   Also you will find that on the outside the skirt's tube
angle will keep water from puddling on the deck.   Slightly leaky skirts
are really wet if they puddle, but seem dry if you get them to shed water
quickly.  Of course if you wear the tube on the outside and you do get a
big wave in the chest you can get a water into the kayak.    I have rolled
my kayak with a nylon tube on the outside of the jacket and PFD and
although I got more water than with my neoprene skirt under the jacket  it
was not a major amount.   One of the times I like to wear the nylon tube
outside the PFD is in warmer weather where I am not wearing a jacket.   If
the water is calm it is easy to let the tube fall down to the deck to help
me stay cool, but I can quickly raise it up without having to remove my PFD
if conditions get rougher.  


So if you are using a skirt with a nylon tube you might try it both ways.  
If when wearing the jacket and/or PFD over the tube you get lots of
puddling or the top of the tube moves down more on your stomach than up on
your chest then try wearing the tube on the outside of the PFD and jacket. 
Hope this helps.


Of course you always have the option of buying a storm cag and wearing it
over the top of everything else no matter how you put them on.

Mark J. Arnold



>
> So, my sea kayak paddling  Paddlewise colleagues,  how do you wear these
> items?  What do you put on first, second, and third?
>
> Ol' Dave
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (Paddlewise) Spray Skirts/PFD's/Dry Tops
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 21:15:18 -0800
This reminds me somewhat of the debate whether jeans should be tucked into
cowboy boots (like Roy Rogers) or left outside like virtually every real
cowboy I've ever known. Unless you want a lot of dirt and... um.... fresh
cow stuff in your boots, wear the jeans over them. So now... on to spray
skirts.

There's a segue for ya...

I wear poly-pro clothing first (Pam... are you paying attention?), then the
drytop (with the dry-bibs if appropriate - thanks to Sue), then the
sprayskirt, then the PFD.

The drytop is not there simply to keep spray off your while you paddle or
just to keep you warm while you set up for a roll; it's there to keep you
safely warmer and dryer if you swim. And to do that it needs to have some
close seal around your body. Now, granted, if you wear clothes under the
drytop then you will have some water entry unless the seal is against bare
skin. But you're going to get a LOT more water entry under that spray skirt
if you bail out of your cockpit.

As far as the instructor telling you to pull the spray skirt up over the
outside the PFD I am at a loss. This would introduce a fair bit of water
down the sprayskirt if you took a wave over your chest. He must've been a
Roy Rogers fan. :)

Craig Jungers
Royal City, WA

PS: Ok, ok... sometimes I just wear jeans and a tee-shirt and no spray-skirt
and my PFD behind my seat. Does that make me ineligible for the "on the
fringe" club?


On 11/17/06, Dave Bishop <bishopd_at_jps.net> wrote:
>
> The recent issue of Canoe & Kayak has reviews of a half-dozen spray skirts
> and
> as I looked at the accompanying pictures of paddlers in their kayaks, I
> noted
> that none of the paddlers were wearing PFD's   I am assuming that was
> because
> the pictures were posed and intended to show the whole spray skirt,
> including
> the features of the tunnels.  The paddlers dry tops were all worn inside
> the
> tunnels of the spray skirt, I assume for the same reason, however, that
> brought some questions to my mind.
>
> My first instructions in what to wear, and how to wear it, while  kayaking
> were to don the spray skirt first, then the dry top with its tight
> waistband
> down over the skirt's tunnel, and then the PFD on top.  This  manner of
> wearing these has always shed spray and splash and rain very nicely and
> kept
> me dry inside.
>
> On a recent tour I was chastised by a professional guide for wearing my
> PFD
> over the spray skirt and instructed to put on the PFD first and pull the
> tunnel of the skirt up outside of it.  We were paddling on very calm water
> on
> a warm day, so in order to keep peace (and with very skeptical second
> thoughts),  I did so, though the pockets in my PFD were covered up.
>
> So, my sea kayak paddling  Paddlewise colleagues,  how do you wear these
> items?  What do you put on first, second, and third?
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
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