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From: Don Lowther <dlowther_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bilge pumps
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 18:09:45 -0800
Thank you everyone for your feedback and suggestions.
Over the weekend I emailed the pump manufacturer "Rule" explaining my set-up
and the problem it was having overcoming the check valve. I'll forward their
answer below, makes perfect sense of course:

Good day Don,

Both Rule and our competitors' centrifugal style bilge pumps have very
little air vacuum pressure because there is a large gap (depending on
the pump, it could range between 1/16"-3/16") which allows high flow and
some bilge debris to flow past the impeller without damaging the unit.

The negative side of the having the large gap between the housing and
the impeller is the impeller needs to come in contact with water to pull
the water out of the bilge (water being a lot thicker than air).

The check valve at the end of the bilge hose seals air in the hose and
will not allow the water to come in contact with the impeller. The pump
may be in a few inches of water (or completely submerged) but because of
the air pocket, the pump cannot remove the water from the bilge.

A generic remedy is to remove the check valve and put a curly-que (sorry
for the lack of technical terminology) in the line and that will keep
some of the water from flowing back into the bilge.

Please let me know if there are any more questions,

Michael Irving
Rule Product Specialist
ITT Marine and Leisure Group
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bilge pumps
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 05:13:46 -0800
Don Lowther wrote:
> Thank you everyone for your feedback and suggestions.
> Over the weekend I emailed the pump manufacturer "Rule" explaining my set-up
> and the problem it was having overcoming the check valve. I'll forward their
> answer below, makes perfect sense of course:
> 
> Good day Don,
> 
> Both Rule and our competitors' centrifugal style bilge pumps have very
> little air vacuum pressure because there is a large gap (depending on
> the pump, it could range between 1/16"-3/16") which allows high flow and
> some bilge debris to flow past the impeller without damaging the unit.
> 
> The negative side of the having the large gap between the housing and
> the impeller is the impeller needs to come in contact with water to pull
> the water out of the bilge (water being a lot thicker than air).
> 
> The check valve at the end of the bilge hose seals air in the hose and
> will not allow the water to come in contact with the impeller. The pump
> may be in a few inches of water (or completely submerged) but because of
> the air pocket, the pump cannot remove the water from the bilge.
> 
> A generic remedy is to remove the check valve and put a curly-que (sorry
> for the lack of technical terminology) in the line and that will keep
> some of the water from flowing back into the bilge. [snip]

Sooo, in a nutshell ... it loses its prime, and the check valve on the 
_exit_ prevents it from getting air/water out?

I'm wondering:  "What's a curly-que?"

Am I missing something? Wouldn't a check valve on the input side, and a 
free opening on the exit also solve the problem here, once the pump is 
primed?  Or, is it the check valve on the input side that is the problem?

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bilge pumps
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:06:47 -0500
Dave Kruger wrote:

> Sooo, in a nutshell ... it loses its prime, and the check valve on the 
> _exit_ prevents it from getting air/water out?

I could see this if the whole affair is pretty airtight.  If air is trapped in 
the outlet pipe, inside the pump and the scroll case, water can't enter the 
scroll case to cover the impeller -- think of pushing an empty glass upside down 
into water - water stays out of the glass.

However, I rather doubt that the whole affair is sufficiently airtight.  If it 
is, a tiny hole in the pipe on the pump side of the check valve should solve the 
problem.  That'll let air through but not leak any significant amount of water.


> I'm wondering:  "What's a curly-que?"

If you make a full 360 degree loop with the outlet tubing, you get the 
equivalent of a trap in the drainpipe of a sink.  If the top of the loop is 
close to the underside of the deck, it makes an effective check valve.  If you 
can't find a cheap check valve, that's an alternative - not truly watertight, 
but pretty effective.  I wish I knew about this before buying a $$ check valve.

Mike
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bilge pumps
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:18:07 -0800
Michael Daly wrote:
> Dave Kruger wrote:

>> I'm wondering:  "What's a curly-que?"
> 
> If you make a full 360 degree loop with the outlet tubing, you get the 
> equivalent of a trap in the drainpipe of a sink.  If the top of the loop 
> is close to the underside of the deck, it makes an effective check 
> valve.  If you can't find a cheap check valve, that's an alternative - 
> not truly watertight, but pretty effective.  I wish I knew about this 
> before buying a $$ check valve.

Yeah, that solves everything, with no moving parts, no check valve to slow 
down water exiting the boat, and one less place for debris to clog the 
system.  KISS wins again!

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bilge pumps
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:39:48 -0500
Dave Kruger wrote:

> Yeah, that solves everything, with no moving parts, no check valve to 
> slow down water exiting the boat, and one less place for debris to clog 
> the system.  KISS wins again!

But you still have a bunch of water holding back the air in the system.  A tiny 
hole in the topmost position of the loop would solve that _if_ the air is really 
a problem.

Mike
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