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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] on PFDs and fatalities (pee bottle thread)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:23:18 -0800
Brad wrote:
   >>>>This is a terrific endorsement of a piece of kayaking gear called
a pee bottle. At least it works reliably for males.<<<<<<

I think a pee bottle could be a real hazard in a kayak. Spray deck open,
hands off the paddle, and your attention off the paddling while trying to be
careful not to spill. Maybe you should take the advice Tsunami Ranger Eric
Soures gave at a long ago West Coast Sea Kayaking Symposium talk. He said:
"I'm Portuguese, I just go in my wetsuit." It definitely looks to me like
the safer alternative, and both sexes could do it equally well too. I'm not
sure what being Portuguese had to do with it though. Eric was not a fan of
PFD's at the time either. He thought surf paddlers should also be very
strong swimmers and needed to be able to get under the power of the surf at
times. Especially when the surf was breaking into the rock gardens he loved
to paddle in. Eric certainly didn't eschew all safety equipment though. The
picture of him outfitted in Sea Kayaker made him look like some well
equipped military commando. Later he started using a PFD but called it a
"rib protector".

For decades I skied without a helmet even though I took a few blows to the
head and arms wrapped up around my head from skis spinning like helicopter
blades (held to my foot by so called "safety straps"). Safer for other
people I guess as they were designed to keep the skis from running down the
hill. They were certainly not safer for me. I was an early adopter of ski
brakes when they were an add-on accessories rather than integral to bindings
as they are now. After Sonny Bono and the Kennedy clan member died of head
injuries skiing in one year I went to school on them and started wearing a
helmet. Now I'd feel naked without one. Besides providing some head
protection it helps keep my head dry and the ear flaps and chin strap are
great for holding the ear buds of my MP3 player in place. It helps hold my
eyeglasses in place along with Croakies as well.

The first couple of times I went skiing this year I had a few nasty little
falls that twice bruised my hip and once made may left shoulder traumatized
enough that I couldn't lift my arm from the shoulder that night. luckily it
seemed to sort it self out overnight and was fine in the morning. After that
I fashioned myself some hip pads. I'm 61 now and although I tell myself that
by skiing and falling hard sometimes I'm giving my body the message that it
needs to keep those bones dense and the rest of my body tough as well.
That's the theory anyway. However, as a back-up I'll also wear hip pads and
shoulder pads (hockey or lacrosse I think--I don't know for sure, I picked
them up for a few dollars at a thrift store). Since then I haven't had any
nasty falls to test out the new equipment but I've upgraded to some hockey
hip pads just the same and even tried out some knee pads/brace one time (I
put 19 stitches in my knee at the end of last season and 6 stitches in the
same knee maybe 40 years ago--the later a chop to the bone from one of the
"helicopter blade" skis). I probably wouldn't be wearing this stuff if it
was getting in the way of my skiing but so far it hasn't and it might
someday prevent a serious injury so why not wear it. Nobody else I know of
does at the present. Maybe I'll have been the first to do so.

Maybe I'll start the ball rolling and become a promoter like I did with the
paddle float rescue. Let see first I'll patent them and then get on the
Skiwise chat room and promote the hell out of them. Next I'll demand that
the government make them mandatory for all skiers. If that doesn't work I'll
write to organizations of lawyers and let them know that they could profit
mightily because the liability for not requiring them would make them
"bigger than Firestone" for lawyers. I'll accuse ski shops that won't carry
them of a conspiracy to maim and kill the public in a book I self publish. I
know. I'll go by the "handle" SkiPadMan. ;-)

Matt Broze
www.marinerkayaks.com
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] on PFDs and fatalities (pee bottle thread)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 06:09:19 -0700
Matt Broze wrote:

> Maybe I'll start the ball rolling and become a promoter like I did with the
> paddle float rescue. Let see first I'll patent them and then get on the
> Skiwise chat room and promote the hell out of them. Next I'll demand that
> the government make them mandatory for all skiers. If that doesn't work I'll
> write to organizations of lawyers and let them know that they could profit
> mightily because the liability for not requiring them would make them
> "bigger than Firestone" for lawyers. I'll accuse ski shops that won't carry
> them of a conspiracy to maim and kill the public in a book I self publish. I
> know. I'll go by the "handle" SkiPadMan. ;-)

Great satire, Matt.  Newcomers to P-wise may not see it as clearly as 
survivors of the death of Wavelength from Spoodle-man.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] on PFDs and fatalities (pee bottle thread)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:52:47 -0700
Quoting Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>:

> Brad wrote:
>    >>>>This is a terrific endorsement of a piece of kayaking gear called
> a pee bottle. At least it works reliably for males.<<<<<<
>
> I think a pee bottle could be a real hazard in a kayak. Spray deck open,
> hands off the paddle, and your attention off the paddling while trying to be
> careful not to spill. Maybe you should take the advice Tsunami Ranger Eric
> Soures gave at a long ago West Coast Sea Kayaking Symposium talk. He said:
> "I'm Portuguese, I just go in my wetsuit." It definitely looks to me like
> the safer alternative, and both sexes could do it equally well too. I'm not
> sure what being Portuguese had to do with it though. For decades I  
> skied without a helmet even though I took a few blows to the
> head and arms wrapped up around my head from skis spinning like helicopter
> blades (held to my foot by so called "safety straps"). After Sonny  
> Bono and the Kennedy clan member died of head injuries skiing in one  
> year I went to school on them and started wearing a helmet.

      I don't know if I'm Portuguese or not. There was one memorable six
mile crossing we did where I had an overwhelming urge to pee at about the
three mile mark. Didn't have an empty bottle, but a plastic produce bag
sure worked nicely. The fact that women might find this methodology
awkward did not deter me from doing it. I agree with Matt that you always
want to stay alert when your spray skirt is open. You generally do the
bag/bottle thing in calm conditions.
      As for skiing, after having a kid ski at high speed just past my ear,
I would agree with Matt again that helmets and padding are advisable on
snow. Several skiers have been killed or injured on Mt. Hood recently by
being run down from behind by others. None of the victims wore a helmet.
Would it be outrageous to suggest that motorists wear a helmet?

Brad
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] on PFDs and fatalities (pee bottle thread)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 23:11:28 -0700
I'm tempted to launch into a story about a friend who ran down the same
skier twice in one night at Stevens Pass ski area and again (but a different
skier) at a now-defunct ski area near Everett, WA. But I won't.

Or how we used to use "long thongs" (3-foot leather straps) wrapped around
our leather boots and the bindings to give us better edge control during
races. Our feet, for better or worse, were firmly locked in place unless the
bindings themselves came loose from the skis.

Thank god I discovered cross-country in my middle years.

Regarding pee bottles, glider pilots could give all of you - male or female
- lessons in peeing in cramped quarters. Some guys use an "external
catheter" with plastic tubing to a container strapped to one's calf
(presumably no shorts). I use a zipper-lock plastic bag with some diaper
material inside to sop up the liquid. But I have to deploy full flaps in
order to get gravity to help me along as my seat puts my middle as low as my
feet. Anyone who knows me will know when I'm peeing by the glider going into
a 45-degree nose-down attitude while not in the landing pattern. There can
sometimes be impromptu contests in getting a baggie close to a target... but
we won't delve into this any farther. Glider pilots are a raucous lot.

Some marine supply stores sell a device that funnels pee overboard for
female yachties. There might be problems with vertical drop in a kayak
though.

Dry suits, as I discovered recently, are not particularly handy when nature
calls; especially if the nature calling is of the solid-waste variety.

Maybe sponsons.... and then just stand up. :P

Craig Jungers
Royal City, WA
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From: Darryl <Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] on PFDs and fatalities (pee bottle thread)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:26:41 -0400
<snip>

> As for skiing, after having a kid ski at high speed just past my ear,
> I would agree with Matt again that helmets and padding are advisable on
> snow. Several skiers have been killed or injured on Mt. Hood recently by
> being run down from behind by others. None of the victims wore a helmet.
> Would it be outrageous to suggest that motorists wear a helmet?
> 
> Brad

I clearly remember seeing something in the automotive press back in 
the ... oh ... 1960s maybe ... where they were advocating helmets for 
passenger car drivers. Knowing that the average driver wouldn't 
likely be keen on wearing what passed for a racing helmet in those 
days, they had come up with a series of designs that superficially 
looked like regular hats but which were hard shelled with some 
padding.

One model looked like a fedora, IIRC, and one looked like those hats 
that Jackie Stewart wears. I can't remember what they're called.

Given that seat-belts are now mandatary -- we all wear them, don't 
we? -- and that interior car design has come a *long* way since the 
1960s, I'm not sure if helmets for car passengers is really going to 
help much. Other than destroying ornate hair-dos, they're not going 
to hurt either.

-- 
  Darryl
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From: Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] on PFDs and fatalities (pee bottle thread)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:04:14 -0700
The Urban Sombrero???

-----Original Message-----

One model looked like a fedora, IIRC, and one looked like those hats 
that Jackie Stewart wears. I can't remember what they're called.
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From: Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] on PFDs and fatalities (pee bottle thread)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:07:14 -0700
Quoting Darryl <Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca>:

> <snip>
>
>> As for skiing, after having a kid ski at high speed just past my ear,
>> I would agree with Matt again that helmets and padding are advisable on
>> snow. Several skiers have been killed or injured on Mt. Hood recently by
>> being run down from behind by others. None of the victims wore a helmet.
>> Would it be outrageous to suggest that motorists wear a helmet?
>>
>> Brad
>
> I clearly remember seeing something in the automotive press back in
> the ... oh ... 1960s maybe ... where they were advocating helmets for
> passenger car drivers. Knowing that the average driver wouldn't
> likely be keen on wearing what passed for a racing helmet in those
> days, they had come up with a series of designs that superficially
> looked like regular hats but which were hard shelled with some
> padding.
>
> One model looked like a fedora, IIRC, and one looked like those hats
> that Jackie Stewart wears. I can't remember what they're called.
>
> Given that seat-belts are now mandatary -- we all wear them, don't
> we? -- and that interior car design has come a *long* way since the
> 1960s, I'm not sure if helmets for car passengers is really going to
> help much. Other than destroying ornate hair-dos, they're not going
> to hurt either.
>
> --
>   Darryl

   Personally, I wouldn't mind driving with a Green Bay Packers helmet on.
As for the type of hat that Jackie Stewart wears, I'm going to go out on a
limb and call them Jackie Stewart hats.

Brad
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] on PFDs and fatalities (pee bottle thread)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:36:34 -0700
I used to wear a helmet in my Ford Bronco convertible (with roll cage, which 
came in handy on two occasions as I was kinda as hard on that 4x4 as I am 
with my Nordkapp - and liked to roll); I only lasted one week wearing the 
helmet for street driving as I got too many weird looks.

A buddy of mine souped up his RX7 and took me for a backcountry road spin 
awhile back to try his beefed up rotary engine. I was trying to act cool as 
we sped around curves, plastered in the race bucket seat by the g forces. He 
races at a track and had a helmet in the back seat. I reached around and 
pretended to ask technical questions about racing helmet dogma. I blithely 
asked if I could try it on. I didn't take it off until we reached the main 
road again.

Helmets for sea kayaking seem to be one of those safety discussions we get 
into on Paddlewise every now and again too. I see pictures in SeaKayaker 
magazine showing various expedition photos. Sometimes not all the 
participant have helmets on their rear decks. Given the long trips being 
reported, I assume the members missing helmets don't have them tucked away 
in their hatches. I assume its a matter of different strokes for different 
folks. Some like to stroke with helmets on or readily available, others 
obviously not.

Twice now I've been hurtled over a reef unexpectedly with full 360 rotation, 
with just enough water depth or roll tilt that I didn't crack my skull or 
severely lacerate my helmetless head. Once I was storm paddling lightly 
loaded and missed my timing going by on the seaward side of a reef just as 
large swell came through, and once I was running heavy on an outside coast 
tour and absentmindedly stumbled closer into a boomer zone than I wanted 
just as it exploded in full view of my buddies who were safely paddling 
outside the danger zone The large swell had suddenly curved around a 
headland. I used to carry a flag mounted high on the back deck, visible from 
some distance that allowed my companions to see where I was, check my 
parallel progress, and see if I was still oriented right-side-up, given that 
I typically paddled through every available rock garden while touring.

How about kayakers wearing a helmet and running with a mounted flag whenever 
possible. Tell fellow paddlers _not_ wearing a helmet and using flag that 
they simpy look ridiculous without them. :-)

Doug L

> Quoting Darryl <Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca>:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> As for skiing, after having a kid ski at high speed just past my ear,
>>> I would agree with Matt again that helmets and padding are advisable on
>>> snow. Several skiers have been killed or injured on Mt. Hood recently by
>>> being run down from behind by others. None of the victims wore a helmet.
>>> Would it be outrageous to suggest that motorists wear a helmet?
>>>
>>> Brad
>>
>> I clearly remember seeing something in the automotive press back in
>> the ... oh ... 1960s maybe ... where they were advocating helmets for
>> passenger car drivers. Knowing that the average driver wouldn't
>> likely be keen on wearing what passed for a racing helmet in those
>> days, they had come up with a series of designs that superficially
>> looked like regular hats but which were hard shelled with some
>> padding.
>>
>> One model looked like a fedora, IIRC, and one looked like those hats
>> that Jackie Stewart wears. I can't remember what they're called.
>>
>> Given that seat-belts are now mandatary -- we all wear them, don't
>> we? -- and that interior car design has come a *long* way since the
>> 1960s, I'm not sure if helmets for car passengers is really going to
>> help much. Other than destroying ornate hair-dos, they're not going
>> to hurt either.
>>
>> --
>>   Darryl
>
>   Personally, I wouldn't mind driving with a Green Bay Packers helmet on.
> As for the type of hat that Jackie Stewart wears, I'm going to go out on a
> limb and call them Jackie Stewart hats.
>
> Brad
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