> If mr Rappe had been isolated by a thick layer of fat, like a seal, > he most likely would have survived, but the more lean you are - > competing athletes tend to be very lean - the greater the dangers > when it comes to hypothermia. > > Tord very true i not longer do triathlons but i've always naturally had very low levels of skin fat. my body mass index is around 18.5, almost the cut off limit for too skinny super models. this means i have a low body mass with high surface area to radiate heat. warmth just gets sucked out of me at a much faster rate than my friends. people like this also tend to have higher metabolic rates which may mean they lose heat even faster and burn up their bodies energy reserves even quicker ... experimenting in the 15C cold water bath at the local onsen/sauna shows that i can slow the heat loss by staying very still, (body heat warms the water around you and slows heat loss) and keeping arms and legs close to the body. even keeping your fingers together helps, (zero fat high blood flow areas around the trunk, like under the arms and around the groin, (arteries etc. lose heat the fastest as the body can't restrict blood flow to them easily) however being dragged through 5C open water on the back of a kayak isn't going to allow these strategies after not too many minutes of such cold water the blood vessels in the arms and legs will constrict to conserve core heat and fine control of the fingers will very quickly be lost followed by strength in the hand and of course a wet head loses heat very fast who can forget those images of passengers from an airplane that crashed into a frozen river being unable to fit the rescue helicopter lifting harness clips around themselves or support their weight when it was winched back up. and so they fell back into the river to die, (some years ago in the usa) multi-sport athletes tend to over estimate their abilities to conquer limits and underestimate their ability to survive in cold conditions when for some reason they stop working their muscles. this added to their need to wear clothing that dumps heat effectively and distaste of carrying the excess weight of proper survival equipment, (for those temps you would really need to carry a 7mm wetsuit with hood. really, really bulky) means that they are probably more vulnerable, not less, than the average, less than fit, person to hypothermia as i understand it when the person loses consciousness from hypothermia death is not far away i think the only recommended recovery technique in those circumstances is for 1 or 2 body naked people to sandwich the body naked victim together and cover themselves with the resulting big pile of clothes and keep talking to to try and stop the sleep that never ends probably the last thing adrenaline driven macho men are going to try (seem to remember this was "animal heat" theory that the nazis also discovered with their "experiments" on polish pilots) eric e *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One reason I prefer female paddling partners! -----Original Message----- i think the only recommended recovery technique in those circumstances is for 1 or 2 body naked people to sandwich the body naked victim together and cover themselves with the resulting big pile of clothes and keep talking to to try and stop the sleep that never ends probably the last thing adrenaline driven macho men are going to try *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Eri Ceas wrote: > this means i have a low body mass with high > surface area to radiate heat. warmth just gets sucked out of me at a much > faster rate than my friends. > people like this also tend to have higher metabolic rates which > may mean they lose heat even faster and burn up their bodies energy reserves > even quicker ... But at the same time, your fitness level means that your ability to control blood flow to the outer tissues is better. At the extreme, your body will limit flow to the extremities and skin surface. Those who are out of shape and have a lot of body fat will not do this effectively, negating any insulation value in the fat, since the blood carries heat from the core quite well. That is why overweight people get ruddy faced in cold, while lean, fit people are pale. When it comes to stretching out survival in cold water, fitness beats fat. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike, fitness might be OK for getting back into your kayak. It is good for survival skills and covering distances. It might be good for almost everything we do at cold waters. But I have very strong suspicions that the discussions about fat versus skills do not actually matter so much. Rappe was probably many ways skilled and in perfect physical condition. Best, Ari On 29. maalis 2007, at 19:38, Michael Daly wrote: > Eri Ceas wrote: > >> this means i have a low body mass with high >> surface area to radiate heat. warmth just gets sucked out of me at a >> much >> faster rate than my friends. >> people like this also tend to have higher metabolic rates >> which >> may mean they lose heat even faster and burn up their bodies energy >> reserves >> even quicker ... > > But at the same time, your fitness level means that your ability to > control blood flow to the outer tissues is better. At the extreme, > your body will limit flow to the extremities and skin surface. Those > who are out of shape and have a lot of body fat will not do this > effectively, negating any insulation value in the fat, since the blood > carries heat from the core quite well. That is why overweight people > get ruddy faced in cold, while lean, fit people are pale. > > When it comes to stretching out survival in cold water, fitness beats > fat. > > Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As a person with a strong grasp on gravity, I'm not sure I buy this. I'm overweight, but reasonably fit, I think I have much better protection than a very fit skinny person. Seems like there are too many variables to make that statement. Mark Sanders -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Michael Daly When it comes to stretching out survival in cold water, fitness beats fat. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote >I think I have much better protection >than a very fit skinny person. G'day Mark, As a skinny but very fit person I agree Mark. I have to wear many (6) layers to remain warm (ie not shivering) for any protracted length of time (~30 minutes) in even quite warm (15C) water. Wouldn't fancy my chances of survival compared with yours in really cold water. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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